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Old 01.10.2014, 18:31
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Re: Catalan referendum

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It wouldn't have to be a military force though. Just some pro-Spanish rebels who would suddenly and mysteriously be armed and equipped. I'm sure Mr Putin can explain the details.
Perhaps you wanted to say 'pro-Catalan' rebels, I suppose... if you wanted to make any analogy to Ukraine...
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Old 01.10.2014, 19:01
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Re: Catalan referendum

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are you so sure?

Apartheid was once anchored in a constitution you know.
Yes, I am sure: if the constitution doesn't fit to whomever for any reason, it can be amended, it's in the constitution. The procedures are locked for any given change proposal. No way around it. Changing the constitution IS in the constitution.
In other words:
If the change is anti constitutional, then there is no change. If the Catalans break off without full respect of the present constitution, then they are Spanish even if they think they are independent. Hence: they can't. On top of it: Catalunia needs Madrid to pay their regional debt.
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Old 01.10.2014, 20:28
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Yes, I am sure: if the constitution doesn't fit to whomever for any reason, it can be amended, it's in the constitution. The procedures are locked for any given change proposal. No way around it. Changing the constitution IS in the constitution.
In other words:
If the change is anti constitutional, then there is no change. If the Catalans break off without full respect of the present constitution, then they are Spanish even if they think they are independent. Hence: they can't. On top of it: Catalunia needs Madrid to pay their regional debt.
so change the constitution and let the vote go ahead. simple
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Old 02.10.2014, 06:55
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Re: Catalan referendum

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so change the constitution and let the vote go ahead. simple
Getting Madrid to change the constitution to let the referendum go ahead will be anything but simple.
On top of it, paying the catalan debt without Madrid will not only be not-simple, it will be impossible, it be you pay the bill. That would be simple.
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Old 02.10.2014, 10:02
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Getting Madrid to change the constitution to let the referendum go ahead will be anything but simple.
On top of it, paying the catalan debt without Madrid will not only be not-simple, it will be impossible, it be you pay the bill. That would be simple.
Had Scotland's independence gone ahead, Scotland would have assumed some portion of the UK's national debt. I don't know where the idea comes from that an independent Catalonia wouldn't assume some portion of Spain's debt and obligations, or be able to handle that.

Catalonia has a lot of industry, it also has a lot of productive agriculture, having better access to water than the south of Spain. The Catalonian coast is one string of succesful tourist resorts (and nicer and more up-market ones than those further south). Of course the Catalonian economy can pull it off.
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Old 02.10.2014, 10:04
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Getting Madrid to change the constitution to let the referendum go ahead will be anything but simple.
On top of it, paying the catalan debt without Madrid will not only be not-simple, it will be impossible, it be you pay the bill. That would be simple.
Debts of all southern european regions are paid by German taxpayers. The Germans would also have to financially support an independent Catalonia, otherwise some German banks could be at risk.
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Old 02.10.2014, 18:00
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Had Scotland's independence gone ahead, Scotland would have assumed some portion of the UK's national debt. I don't know where the idea comes from that an independent Catalonia wouldn't assume some portion of Spain's debt and obligations, or be able to handle that.
The point is that Catalonia can't assume its own Catalan debt in the first place. They are not able to handle their own regional debt as an autonomous region now, and independence won't change that. Madrid paying the debt of a region, even autonomous, makes sense - Madrid paying the debt of a foreign country doesn't.
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Old 02.10.2014, 19:39
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Re: Catalan referendum

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The point is that Catalonia can't assume its own Catalan debt in the first place. They are not able to handle their own regional debt as an autonomous region now, and independence won't change that. Madrid paying the debt of a region, even autonomous, makes sense - Madrid paying the debt of a foreign country doesn't.
If it is true that

(a) Madrid is able to pay the Catalan debt and
(b) Catalonia isn't.

This means the economic power of Spain minus Catalonia must be quite a bit larger than that of Catalonia. As Catalonia is not the only region in Spain to have serious debt, this means the surplus that Spain minus Catalonia is generating is larger than what is required to service Catalonia's debt, whereas Catalonia does not have the economic ability to service even its own part of the debt.

This doesn't have much to do with reality as Catalonia is very much the economic powerhouse of Spain.
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Old 02.10.2014, 20:33
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Re: Catalan referendum

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The point is that Catalonia can't assume its own Catalan debt in the first place. They are not able to handle their own regional debt as an autonomous region now, and independence won't change that. Madrid paying the debt of a region, even autonomous, makes sense - Madrid paying the debt of a foreign country doesn't.
catalonia gets less central government than it feels is due to it. to compensate for this they run up debt which spain must guarantee. this is a deliberate strategy, not an inability to balance the books. an independent catalonia would not have any debt as the debts of all spanish regions are effectivly spanish national debt. this has been pointed out by leading german economists.
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Old 02.10.2014, 20:38
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Re: Catalan referendum

The more I read the more I wonder why Madrid doesn't just amend the constitution and hope that Catalan goes. If they cost so much to subsidise then why the rest of the Spanish population doesn't support it is utterly beyond me.

The more I read the more I see similarities with Scotland, that oil rich country that many people seem to think the financially support.
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Old 02.10.2014, 21:19
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Re: Catalan referendum

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This means the economic power of Spain minus Catalonia must be quite a bit larger than that of Catalonia. .
No it doesn't. Catalonia pays what it can off this debt and Madrid subsidize. Highest debt and highest part of produced value is no a contradiction at all in the first place.
I however don't mind any kind of referendum about people's freedom of self-determination. If one accept it once, one must accept it all the time. Some people accepted the Kosovo one, others the Crimean one etc. I don't mind. If the Catalan want to vote, they'll vote. But the vote will be anti constitutional. Some claim that the Kosovo one was anti constitutional and they got independence, others claim that the Crimean one was anti constitutional and they broke off. So yea, Catalunia can do pretty much what it wants with the right friends. Now: Who are Catalunia's friends?
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  #72  
Old 03.10.2014, 08:54
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Re: Catalan referendum

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No it doesn't. Catalonia pays what it can off this debt and Madrid subsidize. Highest debt and highest part of produced value is no a contradiction at all in the first place.
I however don't mind any kind of referendum about people's freedom of self-determination. If one accept it once, one must accept it all the time. Some people accepted the Kosovo one, others the Crimean one etc. I don't mind. If the Catalan want to vote, they'll vote. But the vote will be anti constitutional. Some claim that the Kosovo one was anti constitutional and they got independence, others claim that the Crimean one was anti constitutional and they broke off. So yea, Catalunia can do pretty much what it wants with the right friends. Now: Who are Catalunia's friends?
some fair points but two things I would like to point out:

1/ The "referendum" the Catalan governement is proposing is actually a non-legally binding plebiscite (which is why I fail to undertsnad how it can be unconstitutional)

2/ Catalonia has as much weight on the international stage as Spain does ie SFA. Their squabble does however have potential to damage the eurozone economy. If this drags on and Spain fails to find a solution, countries such as Germany and France may come around to the Catalan point of view. Why not accept Catalonia as a new EU country and expel Spain? It is a hopelessly inefficient and corrupt country which has made no progress despite years of EU subsidies.
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  #73  
Old 03.10.2014, 14:01
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Isn't that Alexei Sayle on the right?
He certainly looks happy to have such a powerful friend.

Like Rajoy when he's with Merkel.
  #74  
Old 04.02.2015, 10:16
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Re: Catalan referendum

Take note that there are some people in Alsace that would like to be independent too. And also some people from Jura canton in Switzerland.

Siau!

Carles
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Old 04.02.2015, 10:48
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Re: Catalan referendum

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Take note that there are some people in Alsace that would like to be independent too. And also some people from Jura canton in Switzerland.

Siau!

Carles
Sure, but we don't see either of them organizing ILLEGAL populist referendums, do we?

And what a joke of a referendum the catalans pulled off! It didn't matter how people voted, as every vote, no matter the vote, would count as a "pro"-vote. The only way to vote against it was to not vote at all - it's like kindergarden democracy. There wasn't even a clear official number of counted votes!

The whole thing was a bad joke. A really bad one. Please do not compare the catalans to the people in Jura or Alsace - it's disrespectful.
  #76  
Old 10.11.2015, 05:53
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Re: Catalan referendum

The Catalan parliament today voted to begin the process of seceding from Spain, possibly as early as 2017.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ins-government
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