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  #21  
Old 13.04.2015, 19:10
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Re: Drone attacks

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I wonder if it would be legal to crowdsource an educational purpose GPS and and other radio links jammer with a radar and active antenna system to to shut these drones out of their command and control center. Such non-lethal technology should be provides as a humanitarian aid to the victims.
The problem is, the targets are completely unaware. They don't get charged or indicted, have exactly zero means for legal proceedings.

Just one moment ... BOOM.
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  #22  
Old 13.04.2015, 20:42
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Re: Drone attacks

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The problem is, the targets are completely unaware. They don't get charged or indicted, have exactly zero means for legal proceedings.

Just one moment ... BOOM.



Boston April 15th 2013 .No one got a warning there ,not a moment just, BOOM But 9/11 was great ,one could see the aircraft . Must have been very exiting
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Old 13.04.2015, 21:14
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Re: Drone attacks

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Boston April 15th 2013 .No one got a warning there ,not a moment just, BOOM
And it was exactly these indiscriminate killings that the Boston Bombing brothers were railing against. The cycle has to be broken somewhere.
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  #24  
Old 14.04.2015, 00:12
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Re: Drone attacks

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Boston April 15th 2013 .No one got a warning there ,not a moment just, BOOM But 9/11 was great ,one could see the aircraft . Must have been very exiting
Is this some sort of half-assed, emotionally charged justification for murdering people? Is that really what you are getting at here?
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  #25  
Old 14.04.2015, 00:47
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Re: Drone attacks

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And it was exactly these indiscriminate killings that the Boston Bombing brothers were railing against. The cycle has to be broken somewhere.
I find this line of reasoning absolutely offensive. without question there are people in the world who have an unfortunately all-too-legitimate reason to hate the US and the indefensible atrocities that are part and parcel of its damnable foreign policies, but the 2 brothers involved in the Boston bombing were not those people. for Christ's sake, the US offered them refuge under circumstances in which it had absolutely no legal or ethical obligation to do so.

the use of drones in the extra-territorial and extra-judicial killing of individuals by the US is horrific and counter-productive. I'm actually embarrassed any time an American wants to debate the point.

and now, because I could use the humor:

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  #26  
Old 14.04.2015, 01:30
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Re: Drone attacks

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Is this some sort of half-assed, emotionally charged justification for murdering people? Is that really what you are getting at here?

Make this 3/4
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  #27  
Old 14.04.2015, 21:25
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Re: Drone attacks

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Boston April 15th 2013 .No one got a warning there ,not a moment just, BOOM But 9/11 was great ,one could see the aircraft . Must have been very exiting
I kind of like the comparison. The result:

The US-soldier are called war heroes and celebrated, while the rest are called terrorists and hunted for kill or incarcerated without any legal means of defense.
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  #28  
Old 14.04.2015, 21:56
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Re: Drone attacks

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I kind of like the comparison. The result:

The US-soldier are called war heroes and celebrated, while the rest are called terrorists and hunted for kill or incarcerated without any legal means of defense.
The US-soldiers wear uniforms and state their objectives.

The terrorists wear no uniforms have no clear stated objectives and try to hide in the civilian population with consequent extremely tragic collateral damage (which may well be a subsidiary objective ).
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  #29  
Old 14.04.2015, 22:20
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Re: Drone attacks

And both essentially kill at will, that's commonly known as murder.
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  #30  
Old 14.04.2015, 22:23
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Re: Drone attacks

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The US-soldiers wear uniforms and state their objectives.



The terrorists wear no uniforms have no clear stated objectives and try to hide in the civilian population with consequent extremely tragic collateral damage (which may well be a subsidiary objective ).

Asymmetric conflict.
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  #31  
Old 14.04.2015, 22:23
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Re: Drone attacks

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I think we should be careful what we wish for, the alternative would be longer range missiles launched from the Persian Gulf with an even greater risk of civilian casualties.
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And it was exactly these indiscriminate killings that the Boston Bombing brothers were railing against. The cycle has to be broken somewhere.

Drones are (potentially) more deliberate and surgically precise than jets and missiles. A jet will only stay around the area for a few minutes. A missile is not usually aborted once it is launched. But a drone will hover over the area for days, surveil and listen in on communications, and can pick its target very carefully before it launches. Is it really more dangerous than conventional weapons? The controversy around it is really about ethics in war itself, which is kind of oxymoronic.
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  #32  
Old 15.04.2015, 08:19
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Re: Drone attacks

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The US-soldiers wear uniforms and state their objectives.

The terrorists wear no uniforms have no clear stated objectives and try to hide in the civilian population with consequent extremely tragic collateral damage (which may well be a subsidiary objective ).
Nope. A US soldier sitting in a container in Nevada controlling a drone over Yemen/Pakistan/any other third world country does not state their objective before the missile hits. Many of the drone attacks happened in countries that are not even at war...

And neither does he kill soldiers, he kills civilians which happen to be alleged terrorist. A terrorist is a criminal which is very different from an enemy soldier. Like any other criminal deserves a terrorist the same legal system that makes the difference between us and them. Yes, even if he killed people before.

War is not about targeted killing, a soldier shoots an enemy based on his uniform, not his name tag. The drone war kills known and identified individuals based on for example the position of their mobile phone... that's why they were originally operated by the CIA and not the military. It's outside of any international agreements how war "works".

That these assassinations are by now standard practice and widely accepted is nothing short of sick. We lower ourselves to the level of terrorists and that will only generate more terrorist...
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  #33  
Old 15.04.2015, 09:31
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Re: Drone attacks

Drones in Yemen. Ok this sounds crazy but maybe possible- Hoppy's rambling mind- Houthis ( Iranian backed) get hold of a load of CIA documents in Yemen. Iranians are very anti- Al Qaeda. AL Qaeda is funded by Saudi Arabia and Qatar. During Saudi dominance of Yemen there is some excahnge of intelligence but nothing much. Saudis ask US for military back up to counter Iranian backed Houthis. Iranians are in talks for lifting of sanctions, inclined to trade with whatever they have including intel in Yemen. US agrees to send arms to Saudis. US send drone to kill an AL Qaeda leader, whose whereabouts have recently come to the attention of the US.
Not much in the US news about this.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/0...154922747.html
More of my ramblings- active imagination, when a house is targeted with a missile, the missile can be timed to pinpoint a certain floor in a house. The missile must not leave an entry hole bigger than about 1/2 meter-1 meter. Anything bigger than this would be the size of a human. For privacy reasons satellite info released to the public on request cannot show less than one meter. If they showed less than one meter then the public could identify people. Bigger than a person can be released, smaller cannot be released- for privacy reasons. From the spatter pattern on walls after a hit, it can be estimated how many were killed and if they were men, women, children.

So the use of a drone all depends on the intelligence you get and how trustworthy you think it is. But when the intelligence is good these drones are very accurate.

Last edited by Hoppy; 15.04.2015 at 09:45. Reason: Addition- last line.
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  #34  
Old 15.04.2015, 18:05
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Re: Drone attacks

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Nope. A US soldier sitting in a container in Nevada controlling a drone over Yemen/Pakistan/any other third world country does not state their objective before the missile hits. Many of the drone attacks happened in countries that are not even at war...

And neither does he kill soldiers, he kills civilians which happen to be alleged terrorist. A terrorist is a criminal which is very different from an enemy soldier. Like any other criminal deserves a terrorist the same legal system that makes the difference between us and them. Yes, even if he killed people before.

War is not about targeted killing, a soldier shoots an enemy based on his uniform, not his name tag. The drone war kills known and identified individuals based on for example the position of their mobile phone... that's why they were originally operated by the CIA and not the military. It's outside of any international agreements how war "works".

That these assassinations are by now standard practice and widely accepted is nothing short of sick. We lower ourselves to the level of terrorists and that will only generate more terrorist...
So it is the fault of the US that the terrorists do not wear uniforms
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  #35  
Old 15.04.2015, 19:55
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Re: Drone attacks

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So it is the fault of the US that the terrorists do not wear uniforms
No. But it's their fault to "declare war on terror" throwing established standards out of the window and fighting terror with terror. It has been nearly 15 years since 9/11... what did the war on terror win? Is Afghanistan now a safer and better country? Did the drone strikes stabilize Pakistan or Yemen? Did throwing extemist into jail without proper jurisdiction in Iraq not start ISIS in the first place? And don't even get me started on Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, black sites and torture we know about...

The results are in plain sight: you cannot win against terrorists if you treat them like a military enemy the way the US did. They war on terror cost billions and if anything only produced more terrorists, not less. If they had spend half the money on fixing the worst social problems in the same regions were the results in terrorism fighting probably better...
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  #36  
Old 15.04.2015, 19:57
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Re: Drone attacks

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So it is the fault of the US that the terrorists do not wear uniforms
Firstly we need to define who a terrorist really is. The term has been bandied around so frequently and liberally by all sides, that it's been rendered almost meaningless.
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  #37  
Old 15.04.2015, 23:16
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Re: Drone attacks

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No. But it's their fault to "declare war on terror" throwing established standards out of the window and fighting terror with terror. It has been nearly 15 years since 9/11... what did the war on terror win? Is Afghanistan now a safer and better country? Did the drone strikes stabilize Pakistan or Yemen? Did throwing extemist into jail without proper jurisdiction in Iraq not start ISIS in the first place? And don't even get me started on Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, black sites and torture we know about...

The results are in plain sight: you cannot win against terrorists if you treat them like a military enemy the way the US did. They war on terror cost billions and if anything only produced more terrorists, not less. If they had spend half the money on fixing the worst social problems in the same regions were the results in terrorism fighting probably better...
About "on fixing the worst social problems" but most of the 9/11 terrorists (like Bin Laden) came from rich Saudi families
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  #38  
Old 15.04.2015, 23:25
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Re: Drone attacks

The world would be a better place if Obama had a 'arrest/detain/prosecute/bring to justice list' instead of a 'kill list'.

Often the drone targets could have been arrested - but then the burden of proof would fall on the state. Easier to drop a bomb on them. And thier neighbors. And the ensuing wave of rescuers.

That'll learn 'em...
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  #39  
Old 16.04.2015, 08:14
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Re: Drone attacks

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About "on fixing the worst social problems" but most of the 9/11 terrorists (like Bin Laden) came from rich Saudi families
Yes. And it took decades for him to become what he was - including a lot of training from the CIA on how to blow stuff up. There is no strategy that effectively stops the last fraction of a percent of people to become terrorists - but the issue in the middle east was not Bin Laden but the thousands who would easily follow him. Or now follow ISIS. I don't think anyone was too concerned with the black op that captured and killed Bin Laden (even though it was legally very questionable do most people think it's a good idea...), but I for one am concerned if it becomes standard practice to send a rocket to a location of a mobile phone hoping to kill the guy who owns it based purely on allegations and accepting to kill whoever is next to him...
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  #40  
Old 18.02.2016, 08:56
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Re: Drone attacks

The NSA’s SKYNET program may be killing thousands of innocent people

The gist of it: US may be killing suspected terrorists based on flawed big data/machine learning statistical analysis.

NY Times lame excuse on underreporting:
Did Times Underplay Drone Program Leak?
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the NYT apology for underreporting also mentions other details the the same article by "The Intercepter":
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It also describes the shocking extent to which drones kill people who were not the intended targets in Yemen, Somalia and Afghanistan. (According to the documents, nearly 90 percent of the individuals killed in one five month period during an operation in Afghanistan were unintended targets.)
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