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Old 27.11.2014, 03:50
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US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

Well, the news is simple: The white house never published numbers but simply called their drones "high precision weapons". NGOs have counted the dead and come to the conclusion that killing a single terrorist has at times killed a three digit number of "collateral damage". In the case of Al Zawahiri apparently including over 70 children.

Some, me included, find it very difficult to accept that a western democracy should carry out any targeted killing without a fair trial - it's in my eyes one of the key differences between a system based on law and one based on terror. But well, even if you think it would be a good idea to assassinate the odd terrorist or dictator: How many innocent people including kids do you deem acceptable?

http://www.20min.ch/ausland/news/sto...-Mann-27472473
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Old 27.11.2014, 08:59
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

Killing the terrorists is pointless. You kill someone and he is replaced right away.

It's like this jihadist John they are running after. The guy is on the camera, do they really think he is the big guy behind all of this? They are looking for a fish instead to go for the whale next to it.
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Old 27.11.2014, 09:43
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

It has disrupted and debilitated terrorist organizations. The reason it takes place is because those countries are not Western democracies with proper law and order, and are not able to manage their own problems. If they were effective governments, these drone strikes would not be necessary. In fact, they themselves make use of US drone strikes in secret, then publicly deny it. The terrorists are not petty civilian criminals that are arrested by the police and put on trial, they are enemy combatants in a war. They started an assymetric war, and the technical advantage in terms of casualty is the other side of that same sword.

Did you have a better alternative to combating these terrorist groups?
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Old 27.11.2014, 09:48
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

If western governments stopped interfering in these countries then just maybe the would evolve for themselves and have effective law and order, just saying
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Old 27.11.2014, 09:54
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

Maybe is a big word. These organizations are not confined to countries. The despotism in these countries are not the product of the West, they are bred within their own societies.
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Old 27.11.2014, 09:58
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

funny they didn't exist before the west decided regime change was needed in

Iraq
Siria
libya

etc
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Old 27.11.2014, 10:00
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

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funny they didn't exist before the west decided regime change was needed in

Iraq
Siria
libya

etc
Something related to oil...
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Old 27.11.2014, 10:06
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

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Killing the terrorists is pointless. You kill someone and he is replaced right away.

It's like this jihadist John they are running after. The guy is on the camera, do they really think he is the big guy behind all of this? They are looking for a fish instead to go for the whale next to it.
No, but it would put a big smile on peoples faces if jihad johnny went to join the martyrs, preferably in little bits.
Is it pointless, don't think so, there are only a handful of guys who are able to hold cohesion, take them out and the ones replacing them are second best then just work down the chain until everything falls apart and they start fighting amongst themselves.
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Old 27.11.2014, 10:06
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

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funny they didn't exist before the west decided regime change was needed in

Iraq
Siria
libya

etc

Those were cases of removing despotism. It turns out they have not developed the ethics of egalitarianism, and are not really ready for a fair democracy. It may take several generational changes through lots of suffering for them to develop the conscience to think differently. It turns out they are in dire need benevolent despots. They did ask for the help.


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Something related to oil...
There really is not much oil in Syria, and the West do not steal oil, we buy it. Its the locals who steal the oil.
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Old 27.11.2014, 10:12
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

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No, but it would put a big smile on peoples faces if jihad johnny went to join the martyrs, preferably in little bits.
That's a perspective - but how many innocent kids are ok to be blown up with him?

The problem is that all the innocent dead have family members who might not like the US too much afterwards and turn into the next jihad johnny. That's pretty much what happened in Iraq...
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Old 27.11.2014, 10:13
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

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and the West do not steal oil, we buy it. Its the locals who steal the oil.
LOL good one

oh wait, you serious??
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Old 27.11.2014, 10:14
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

Drone strikes have exploded off the chart since the Obama administration took office in January 2009. This graphic will blow your mind:

http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/

Last edited by bigfujitsu; 11.12.2015 at 22:19.
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Old 27.11.2014, 10:16
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

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There really is not much oil in Syria, and the West do not steal oil, we buy it. Its the locals who steal the oil.
And we in the west have a strong believe in democracy right and till the point some of those savages elect a guy we do not like. Especially if he does not want to sell the oil to us. Then we bring them some freedom (TM)...
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Old 27.11.2014, 10:20
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

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LOL good one

oh wait, you serious??

Ever see free oil stolen there? Ever fill up with free fuel? I never have.

I think you are confusing the topic of drone strike efficacy with world energy politics. But I don't think that leads to a clear understanding of the situation. The oil motive is pretty much debunked now. The US produces its own, as well as plenty of other non ME countries.
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Old 27.11.2014, 10:34
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

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funny they didn't exist before the west decided regime change was needed in

Iraq
Siria
libya

etc
terrorism and civil war existed in the middle east long before the discovery of oil, and certainly before the US military's involvement in the region. this is not meant to excuse US behavior in the region, but blaming a situation that has many hundreds of causes on a single cause is kind of silly.
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Old 27.11.2014, 11:07
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

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That's a perspective - but how many innocent kids are ok to be blown up with him?

The problem is that all the innocent dead have family members who might not like the US too much afterwards and turn into the next jihad johnny. That's pretty much what happened in Iraq...
That is not where the Jihad Johnnies are coming from, they are mainly from Europe and got infected by the Jihad-bug by exported Saudi wahabism, the Eurojihady (can I get a copyright on that) is totally useless as a combatant but waste not want not, they can be used as a mouthpiece as long as they have a British or German or French etc. accent.
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Old 27.11.2014, 11:11
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

Ya know, they make movies like the Hunger Games and folks think "that's really bad all the rich people thinking it's entertaining, kids killing other kids". Then you have video games where you're the first person shooter blasting away at anything that moves. But there are never any body bags in the movies or in the PlayStation virtual worlds. No families to grieve, no real victims who don't even have a real body to bury. No blood or insects swarming over rotting corpses.

Western society has changed the mantra of killing people. We're using remotely controlled machines to play out our political and military goals. One hundred years ago, soldiers fixed bayonets in close-hand combat in the trenches. Now, some Master Sergeant sitting under the safety of 20 feet of reinforced concrete in the Nevada desert, is guiding drones over areas where US personnel can't be seen to be seen and targeting likely suspects in the crosshairs of random death.

Treverus asks a valid moral question. One that can't be answered however. How many innocents are worth the skull of a bad guy? Intelligence agencies become blinkered when they're given a target. Bin Laden's life became far more of a political trophy than a strategic victory. Ten years and gazillions of dollars to find and eradicate one man?

The west continues to try to cleanse the fight, to "sanitize" killing and not to commit troops into theater, because pictures of coffins draped in flags is bad press that no political leader can wave off with some clever comment. So you send in the drones. Winged Grim Reapers disguising our failed foreign policies and unwillingness to accept the fact that not all of the world might be thinking as we think they should.

The Master Sergeant releases the control grip, turns off the video screens; he truly believes that he's a hero, he's just wiped out a terrorist encampment and goes home to his house where his wife is asleep in bed and his 2.2 kids sleep under the Stars and Stripes. The only thing was, he just killed 18 children and missed the target. But all's fair in war when you're taking the fight to the terrorists and our lives are worth more than some developing Middle East nation. Or so you've been told.

It's sickening.
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Old 27.11.2014, 11:13
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

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Drone strikes have exploded off the chart since the Obama administration took office in January 2009. This graphic will blow your mind:

http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/

If you overlay a graph of number casualties as the drone strikes increased, I believe you would see it plummet. GWB's approach of sending ground forces with helicopters had massively more collateral damage.
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Old 27.11.2014, 11:24
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

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Ya know, they make movies like the Hunger Games and folks think "that's really bad all the rich people thinking it's entertaining, kids killing other kids". Then you have video games where you're the first person shooter blasting away at anything that moves. But there are never any body bags in the movies or in the PlayStation virtual worlds. No families to grieve, no real victims who don't even have a real body to bury. No blood or insects swarming over rotting corpses.

Western society has changed the mantra of killing people. We're using remotely controlled machines to play out our political and military goals. One hundred years ago, soldiers fixed bayonets in close-hand combat in the trenches. Now, some Master Sergeant sitting under the safety of 20 feet of reinforced concrete in the Nevada desert, is guiding drones over areas where US personnel can't be seen to be seen and targeting likely suspects in the crosshairs of random death.

Treverus asks a valid moral question. One that can't be answered however. How many innocents are worth the skull of a bad guy? Intelligence agencies become blinkered when they're given a target. Bin Laden's life became far more of a political trophy than a strategic victory. Ten years and gazillions of dollars to find and eradicate one man?

The west continues to try to cleanse the fight, to "sanitize" killing and not to commit troops into theater, because pictures of coffins draped in flags is bad press that no political leader can wave off with some clever comment. So you send in the drones. Winged Grim Reapers disguising our failed foreign policies and unwillingness to accept the fact that not all of the world might be thinking as we think they should.

The Master Sergeant releases the control grip, turns off the video screens; he truly believes that he's a hero, he's just wiped out a terrorist encampment and goes home to his house where his wife is asleep in bed and his 2.2 kids sleep under the Stars and Stripes. The only thing was, he just killed 18 children and missed the target. But all's fair in war when you're taking the fight to the terrorists and our lives are worth more than some developing Middle East nation. Or so you've been told.

It's sickening.
Beautiful post, I couldn't have said it better!
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Old 27.11.2014, 11:39
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Re: US kill over 1147 people with drones... to get to 41 terrorists.

"The bravery of being out of range."

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Ya know, they make movies like the Hunger Games and folks think "that's really bad all the rich people thinking it's entertaining, kids killing other kids". Then you have video games where you're the first person shooter blasting away at anything that moves. But there are never any body bags in the movies or in the PlayStation virtual worlds. No families to grieve, no real victims who don't even have a real body to bury. No blood or insects swarming over rotting corpses.

Western society has changed the mantra of killing people. We're using remotely controlled machines to play out our political and military goals. One hundred years ago, soldiers fixed bayonets in close-hand combat in the trenches. Now, some Master Sergeant sitting under the safety of 20 feet of reinforced concrete in the Nevada desert, is guiding drones over areas where US personnel can't be seen to be seen and targeting likely suspects in the crosshairs of random death.

Treverus asks a valid moral question. One that can't be answered however. How many innocents are worth the skull of a bad guy? Intelligence agencies become blinkered when they're given a target. Bin Laden's life became far more of a political trophy than a strategic victory. Ten years and gazillions of dollars to find and eradicate one man?

The west continues to try to cleanse the fight, to "sanitize" killing and not to commit troops into theater, because pictures of coffins draped in flags is bad press that no political leader can wave off with some clever comment. So you send in the drones. Winged Grim Reapers disguising our failed foreign policies and unwillingness to accept the fact that not all of the world might be thinking as we think they should.

The Master Sergeant releases the control grip, turns off the video screens; he truly believes that he's a hero, he's just wiped out a terrorist encampment and goes home to his house where his wife is asleep in bed and his 2.2 kids sleep under the Stars and Stripes. The only thing was, he just killed 18 children and missed the target. But all's fair in war when you're taking the fight to the terrorists and our lives are worth more than some developing Middle East nation. Or so you've been told.

It's sickening.
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