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Guest 16.12.2014 08:22

Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
In recent months a group known as Pegida has sprung up Germany. Their mission is to prevent Islamisation of Europe, and it appears that they are gaining popular support with a march of 15,000 people held in Dresden just last night. They're being dismissed as a far-right movement/right wing extremist movement in the press and by politicians. When one looks closer however it seems that the marches are made up of people across the political spectrum who have genuine fear of immigration into Germany and of losing their sense of identity and culture.

It would seem they have a point. Germany accepts more asylum seekers than any other country in the world, and on top of the large Turkish community recent years have seen a massive influx of people seeking asylum from war torn countries like Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia.

This is the trend across Europe at the moment, with UKIP expected to make big gains in next years elections in the UK and the Front National also gaining support in France. This is due in part to a lack of engagement of mainstream political parties to discuss immigration.

Despite their growing popularity, UKIP is still mocked at every opportunity in the Press and on TV, which has the effect of pushing people towards them. No doubt Godwin's law will come into play when discussing Pegida, which may only increase their support. When will mainstream politics realise this and start confronting the immigration issues affecting Europe today? What will it take?


http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...many-far-right

Castro 16.12.2014 10:01

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Those fleeing war torn regions are seeking safe refuge for themselves and their families, they're not on a religious crusade to Islamify Europe (whatever that means).

amogles 16.12.2014 10:20

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Pegida sounds to me like a German version of EDL.

Just as AfD is a German version of UKIP.

In German politics, everything seems to happen about 10 years later :)

So let me predict that in 10 years time in a referendum, the Bavarians will vote to remain part of Germany.

Guest 16.12.2014 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2303419)
Those fleeing war torn regions are seeking safe refuge for themselves and their families, they're not on a religious crusade to Islamify Europe (whatever that means).

Of course individuals and families don't go to Germany with that intention. But they do bring their cultures and beliefs that are often in conflict with that of many Germans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2303439)
Pegida sounds to me like a German version of EDL.

Just as AfD is a German version of UKIP.

In German politics, everything seems to happen about 10 years later :)

So let me predict that in 10 years time in a referendum, the Bavarians will vote to remain part of Germany.

They don't look much like the EDL to me.

http://www.dw.de/image/0,,18107796_303,00.jpg

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...6_68860905.jpg

Castro 16.12.2014 10:30

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loz1983 (Post 2303441)
But they do bring their cultures and beliefs that are often in conflict with that of many Germans.

How well have you managed to assimilate and learn the language of your host nation? Not very well I would imagine, like most of us in the Swiss expat bubble :rolleyes:

SemAms 16.12.2014 11:49

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
The main issue is the economy; when the economy is flourishing in a country, people do not mind the low paying jobs being taken by immigrants; jobs they would not touch themselves. In recession, however, when companies start laying off workers, people start looking around to blame others.

Since 2008, US and EU have never been out of economic hardship. Stock indices went up but a lot of white collar employees dropped out of workforce for good when certain positions/jobs disappeared

So, I do not think it is the islamisation they are afraid of.. but rather deteriorating economic conditions

TobiasM 16.12.2014 11:58

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Its blatant fascism on the rise. I would have thought that they [the Germans] would be a bit more aware of how these ideologies take hold and where they can lead to.

amogles 16.12.2014 11:58

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SemAms (Post 2303516)
The main issue is the economy; when the economy is flourishing in a country, people do not mind the low paying jobs being taken by immigrants; jobs they would not touch themselves. In recession, however, when companies start laying off workers, people start looking around to blame others.

Since 2008, US and EU have never been out of economic hardship. Stock indices went up but a lot of white collar employees dropped out of workforce for good when certain positions/jobs disappeared

So, I do not think it is the islamisation they are afraid of.. but rather deteriorating economic conditions

I disagree. Maybe in a recession, you get more of a "nothing to lose" mindset so people become more radical in expressing their ideas, and this is what we are seeing across Europe. But the ideas themselves are not caused by the recession. In times of prosperity, people who want change on the right might try to achieve that from within the CDU, or within the Tory party or even within a partly like SVP that has a restrained and a radical branch and a grey patch in between and those in that patch can benefit from the ambiguity as to which of the branches they really adhere to. After all, people don't want to rock the boat too hard or stick their necks out needlessly, maybe risking their future career chances.

But when things turn sour and those career chances are gone anway, they are emboldended to burn burn bridges and support less ambiguous movements.

olygirl 16.12.2014 12:20

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
“Misunderstanding arising from ignorance breeds fear, and fear remains the greatest enemy of peace.” Lester B. Pearson

Guest 16.12.2014 12:30

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
What "islamisation"? Muslims make up a tiny minority of people on this continent, mass immigration notwithstanding.


Let's not paint them as more important than they actually are, else you'll give the arseholes on both sides ideas.


Move on, nothing to see here... :rolleyes:

Guest 16.12.2014 12:45

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2303452)
How well have you managed to assimilate and learn the language of your host nation? Not very well I would imagine, like most of us in the Swiss expat bubble :rolleyes:

Of course I've learnt the language, I've been here nearly 7 years. I wouldn't say I say I'm a member of any expat bubble either as I don't exclusively meet and socialise with people from my own or other English speaking countries.

This is all beside the point however, even if I hadn't made an effort to integrate, I have come here from a country that has very similar values and culture to that of Switzerland. Islamic culture is so far removed from the European, and what's more, it's far more visible. If I walk the streets here, no one knows where I'm from.

amogles 16.12.2014 12:47

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loz1983 (Post 2303574)
If I walk the streets here, no one knows where I'm from.

Strangely, people often have a hunch where I'm from. Maybe it has to do with my England T-shirt and my belching of Land of Hope and Glory while drunk. People often pick up on the subtlest of hints you know :) .

Guest 16.12.2014 13:00

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TobiasM (Post 2303526)
Its blatant fascism on the rise. I would have thought that they [the Germans] would be a bit more aware of how these ideologies take hold and where they can lead to.

It's comments like this that lead more and more people to join such movements. It's all too easy to dismiss them as fascist. Every year there is half a million net migration into Germany, of which 120,000 are asylum seekers. Is this not excessive? Is it not cause for concern?

Bucentaure 16.12.2014 13:21

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loz1983 (Post 2303578)
It's comments like this that lead more and more people to join such movements. It's all too easy to dismiss them as fascist. Every year there is half a million net migration into Germany, of which 120,000 are asylum seekers. Is this not excessive? Is it not cause for concern?

No.


Apart from the fact that your statement is not correct (Germany is far less attractive, and other countries, particularly in the Mideast, have much higher rates with regards to refugees), i.e. it's not that Germany has that net immigration for years;
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschla...20-Jahren.html


one cannot honestly argue that because of an ominously perceived persecution phobia or minority complex (German cash-cow myth), social envy and bad education one has to attack Islam or muslims, people or religions. That would be ridiculous. How many muslims do live in Saxony? Simply cannot be the cause.

Guest 16.12.2014 13:27

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
This looks like the same impulse as MEI and the same recurring topic all over the western world. Should it be ignored or should it be discussed? Is it democratic to ignore them? It will likely make them shout louder. It is getting louder, and has grown steadily in the last couple of months. More moderates are starting to blend in. This needs a pressure valve in the form of proper dialog.

crazygringo 16.12.2014 13:27

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2303452)
How well have you managed to assimilate and learn the language of your host nation? Not very well I would imagine, like most of us in the Swiss expat bubble :rolleyes:

comparing an expat to someone who is fleeing their homeland to seek safety and refuge for their family is a little disingenuous, isn't it? I mean, shouldn't there be different standards with respect to the obligation to integrate?

:confused:

certainly there is an ugly side to any discussion about the differences amongst peoples and cultures, and much of that ugliness stems from ignorance and just plain fear. but there are also very legitimate questions to be asked about the likelihood of successfully integrating relatively large numbers of peoples coming from cultures that are in many ways inapposite to the cultures into which they are expected to integrate. and, more and more, those questions are being asked not by "right wing radicals" or "facists" but rather by reasonably intelligent and open-minded individuals having a genuine interest in preserving what they consider to be their own culture.

Guest 16.12.2014 13:37

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crazygringo (Post 2303593)
a genuine interest in preserving what they consider to be their own culture.


Yeah, but "their own culture" isn't being threatened by Muslims, is it?


Europe is changing, but blaming the 2% (or whatever) of the population who happen to be Muslim for those changes is as stupid as blaming the Jews back in the thirties.


Every generation needs a scapegoat. Muslims are our scapegoat - maybe the next generation will turn on us?

Guest 16.12.2014 13:38

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucentaure (Post 2303587)
No.


Apart from the fact that your statement is not correct (Germany is far less attractive, and other countries, particularly in the Mideast, have much higher rates with regards to refugees), i.e. it's not that Germany has that net immigration for years;
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschla...20-Jahren.html


one cannot honestly argue that because of an ominously perceived persecution phobia or minority complex (German cash-cow myth), social envy and bad education one has to attack Islam or muslims, people or religions. That would be ridiculous. How many muslims do live in Saxony? Simply cannot be the cause.

I don't understand really what you mean. Most migration into Germany is certainly coming from Europe and the link you posted shows how rapid immigration is on the rise. Also, this link will show you virtually all assylum seekers entering Germany at the moment are either Muslim or come from Islamic countries.

To turn your argument around, do you simply believe that the 15,000 that turned out last night were just there because they are racist?

Guest 16.12.2014 13:42

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loz1983 (Post 2303601)

To turn your argument around, do you simply believe that the 15,000 that turned out last night were just there because they are racist?


Yup.


Or, rather, there were a few hundred racist people and several thousand easily alarmed, easily led people.


You only need a handful of agitators to get even dear old grannies to hate their neighbours.


Did nobody learn anything from the 20th century?

Guest 16.12.2014 13:51

Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe
 
Quote:

Yup.


Or, rather, there were a few hundred racist people and several thousand easily alarmed, easily led people.


You only need a handful of agitators to get even dear old grannies to hate their neighbours.


Did nobody learn anything from the 20th century?
Jewish immigration into Europe took place over hundreds of years, and within that time they were expelled and returned. The rapid rise in the number of Muslims in Germany has taken place in a relative blink of an eye. I don't think the two can be compared. Limiting immigration is a far cry from expelling people or death camps.


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