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Old 16.12.2014, 08:22
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Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

In recent months a group known as Pegida has sprung up Germany. Their mission is to prevent Islamisation of Europe, and it appears that they are gaining popular support with a march of 15,000 people held in Dresden just last night. They're being dismissed as a far-right movement/right wing extremist movement in the press and by politicians. When one looks closer however it seems that the marches are made up of people across the political spectrum who have genuine fear of immigration into Germany and of losing their sense of identity and culture.

It would seem they have a point. Germany accepts more asylum seekers than any other country in the world, and on top of the large Turkish community recent years have seen a massive influx of people seeking asylum from war torn countries like Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia.

This is the trend across Europe at the moment, with UKIP expected to make big gains in next years elections in the UK and the Front National also gaining support in France. This is due in part to a lack of engagement of mainstream political parties to discuss immigration.

Despite their growing popularity, UKIP is still mocked at every opportunity in the Press and on TV, which has the effect of pushing people towards them. No doubt Godwin's law will come into play when discussing Pegida, which may only increase their support. When will mainstream politics realise this and start confronting the immigration issues affecting Europe today? What will it take?


http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...many-far-right
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Old 16.12.2014, 10:01
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Those fleeing war torn regions are seeking safe refuge for themselves and their families, they're not on a religious crusade to Islamify Europe (whatever that means).
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Old 16.12.2014, 10:20
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Pegida sounds to me like a German version of EDL.

Just as AfD is a German version of UKIP.

In German politics, everything seems to happen about 10 years later

So let me predict that in 10 years time in a referendum, the Bavarians will vote to remain part of Germany.
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Old 16.12.2014, 10:23
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Those fleeing war torn regions are seeking safe refuge for themselves and their families, they're not on a religious crusade to Islamify Europe (whatever that means).
Of course individuals and families don't go to Germany with that intention. But they do bring their cultures and beliefs that are often in conflict with that of many Germans.

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Pegida sounds to me like a German version of EDL.

Just as AfD is a German version of UKIP.

In German politics, everything seems to happen about 10 years later

So let me predict that in 10 years time in a referendum, the Bavarians will vote to remain part of Germany.
They don't look much like the EDL to me.




Last edited by 3Wishes; 16.12.2014 at 10:48. Reason: merging successive posts
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Old 16.12.2014, 10:30
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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But they do bring their cultures and beliefs that are often in conflict with that of many Germans.
How well have you managed to assimilate and learn the language of your host nation? Not very well I would imagine, like most of us in the Swiss expat bubble
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Old 16.12.2014, 11:49
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

The main issue is the economy; when the economy is flourishing in a country, people do not mind the low paying jobs being taken by immigrants; jobs they would not touch themselves. In recession, however, when companies start laying off workers, people start looking around to blame others.

Since 2008, US and EU have never been out of economic hardship. Stock indices went up but a lot of white collar employees dropped out of workforce for good when certain positions/jobs disappeared

So, I do not think it is the islamisation they are afraid of.. but rather deteriorating economic conditions
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Old 16.12.2014, 11:58
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

Its blatant fascism on the rise. I would have thought that they [the Germans] would be a bit more aware of how these ideologies take hold and where they can lead to.
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Old 16.12.2014, 11:58
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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The main issue is the economy; when the economy is flourishing in a country, people do not mind the low paying jobs being taken by immigrants; jobs they would not touch themselves. In recession, however, when companies start laying off workers, people start looking around to blame others.

Since 2008, US and EU have never been out of economic hardship. Stock indices went up but a lot of white collar employees dropped out of workforce for good when certain positions/jobs disappeared

So, I do not think it is the islamisation they are afraid of.. but rather deteriorating economic conditions
I disagree. Maybe in a recession, you get more of a "nothing to lose" mindset so people become more radical in expressing their ideas, and this is what we are seeing across Europe. But the ideas themselves are not caused by the recession. In times of prosperity, people who want change on the right might try to achieve that from within the CDU, or within the Tory party or even within a partly like SVP that has a restrained and a radical branch and a grey patch in between and those in that patch can benefit from the ambiguity as to which of the branches they really adhere to. After all, people don't want to rock the boat too hard or stick their necks out needlessly, maybe risking their future career chances.

But when things turn sour and those career chances are gone anway, they are emboldended to burn burn bridges and support less ambiguous movements.
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Old 16.12.2014, 12:45
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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How well have you managed to assimilate and learn the language of your host nation? Not very well I would imagine, like most of us in the Swiss expat bubble
Of course I've learnt the language, I've been here nearly 7 years. I wouldn't say I say I'm a member of any expat bubble either as I don't exclusively meet and socialise with people from my own or other English speaking countries.

This is all beside the point however, even if I hadn't made an effort to integrate, I have come here from a country that has very similar values and culture to that of Switzerland. Islamic culture is so far removed from the European, and what's more, it's far more visible. If I walk the streets here, no one knows where I'm from.
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Old 16.12.2014, 12:47
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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If I walk the streets here, no one knows where I'm from.
Strangely, people often have a hunch where I'm from. Maybe it has to do with my England T-shirt and my belching of Land of Hope and Glory while drunk. People often pick up on the subtlest of hints you know .
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Old 16.12.2014, 13:27
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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How well have you managed to assimilate and learn the language of your host nation? Not very well I would imagine, like most of us in the Swiss expat bubble
comparing an expat to someone who is fleeing their homeland to seek safety and refuge for their family is a little disingenuous, isn't it? I mean, shouldn't there be different standards with respect to the obligation to integrate?



certainly there is an ugly side to any discussion about the differences amongst peoples and cultures, and much of that ugliness stems from ignorance and just plain fear. but there are also very legitimate questions to be asked about the likelihood of successfully integrating relatively large numbers of peoples coming from cultures that are in many ways inapposite to the cultures into which they are expected to integrate. and, more and more, those questions are being asked not by "right wing radicals" or "facists" but rather by reasonably intelligent and open-minded individuals having a genuine interest in preserving what they consider to be their own culture.
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Old 16.12.2014, 13:37
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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a genuine interest in preserving what they consider to be their own culture.

Yeah, but "their own culture" isn't being threatened by Muslims, is it?


Europe is changing, but blaming the 2% (or whatever) of the population who happen to be Muslim for those changes is as stupid as blaming the Jews back in the thirties.


Every generation needs a scapegoat. Muslims are our scapegoat - maybe the next generation will turn on us?
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Old 16.12.2014, 14:04
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Islamic culture is so far removed from the European, and what's more, it's far more visible. If I walk the streets here, no one knows where I'm from.
Medieval Islamic Culture maybe or that practiced by the Taliban in caves, but the majority of asylum seekers coming from from Syria, Iraq etc.. are coming from pretty urbane cultures where the national dress is jeans and a T-shirt. So apart from their skin colour, how else would you know?? A woman wearing a scarf in Germany is more likely than not to have been born there, and this is the problem with this slippery, fascist slope.

Germany probably does need to look at the number of asylum seekers it is taking in, and ensure that their generosity is not causing hardship or undue tensions to established communities. However this is a separate discussion to claiming that Germany is on the verge of turning Muslim.

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comparing an expat to someone who is fleeing their homeland to seek safety and refuge for their family is a little disingenuous, isn't it? I mean, shouldn't there be different standards with respect to the obligation to integrate?
The OP stated people were coming in with 'cultures and beliefs that are often in conflict with that of many Germans'. Which in my mind is similar to the exasperation felt by the Swiss when us Expats behave in a similar way e.g. not bother with the language or local customs, avoid civic duties, earn more than the national average and yet still complain about everything etc..
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Old 16.12.2014, 14:21
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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...but there are also very legitimate questions to be asked about the likelihood of successfully integrating relatively large numbers of peoples coming from cultures that are in many ways inapposite to the cultures into which they are expected to integrate. and, more and more, those questions are being asked not by "right wing radicals" or "facists" but rather by reasonably intelligent and open-minded individuals having a genuine interest in preserving what they consider to be their own culture.
I agree that this conversation needs to take place, taken away from extremists who have malicious intent. The only problem is that EVERYBODY considers themselves to be at the center. A moderate can appear to be an extremist to an extremist. The value of free speech in is rational and intelligent dialog. It should not be prevented and should be encouraged.

I don't think it is in anybody's place to determine that someone's concern is not valid. Let them air it out if they want.
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Old 13.01.2015, 22:48
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Of course individuals and families don't go to Germany with that intention. But they do bring their cultures and beliefs that are often in conflict with that of many Germans.



They don't look much like the EDL to me.



germans are skinny, brits are fat...any surprises here?
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Old 14.01.2015, 07:25
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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germans are skinny, brits are fat...any surprises here?
Germans are skinny...lol.
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Old 16.12.2014, 15:32
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe


The Guardian at its best.
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Old 17.12.2014, 00:41
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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In recent months a group known as Pegida has sprung up Germany. Their mission is to prevent Islamisation of Europe, and it appears that they are gaining popular support with a march of 15,000 people held in Dresden just last night. They're being dismissed as a far-right movement/right wing extremist movement in the press and by politicians. When one looks closer however it seems that the marches are made up of people across the political spectrum who have genuine fear of immigration into Germany and of losing their sense of identity and culture.

It would seem they have a point. Germany accepts more asylum seekers than any other country in the world, and on top of the large Turkish community recent years have seen a massive influx of people seeking asylum from war torn countries like Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia.

This is the trend across Europe at the moment, with UKIP expected to make big gains in next years elections in the UK and the Front National also gaining support in France. This is due in part to a lack of engagement of mainstream political parties to discuss immigration.

Despite their growing popularity, UKIP is still mocked at every opportunity in the Press and on TV, which has the effect of pushing people towards them. No doubt Godwin's law will come into play when discussing Pegida, which may only increase their support. When will mainstream politics realise this and start confronting the immigration issues affecting Europe today? What will it take?


http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...many-far-right

No, Germany, per capita, accepts far less immigrants than Switzerland


And what does confronting the Immigration issues mean ? The UMP of Nicolas Sarkozy has confronted those issues many years ago, actually during the Chirac Presidency, when Sarkozy was Interior Minister and Dominique de Villepin Foreign Minister. In Germany, both the CDU-CSU-alliance and the SPD had Immigration issues high up on their Agenda. In Switzerland, also the Liberals (FDP on the right) and the Social Democrats worked on the issues for years


************************************************** *************************************


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The newly arrived immigrants often fled war and genuine hardship and are happy to find a bit of peace and be left alone. But its the second and third generation who after failing to integrate turn to radical interpretations of the religion of their parents in hate of the culture that offered them shelter.

Among the Secondos and the third Generation, the religious radicals are, whenever dangerous, a small minority. Which means that is NOT "THE" 2nd 3rd Generation, but just some of them. AND a clear majority does successfully integrate, even if some of them fail


************************************************** *********
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Old 17.12.2014, 02:28
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Before we lose the context, you are responding to a post that was in response to a post that said the people of Dresden are country bumpkins, right? So would you care to explain what the above has to do with that other than changing the topic.
Yes, Dresden is doing better than the rest of Saxony, but that does not mean that the unemployment isn't still far over average or that the GDP is near say Stuttgart or Munich. Your point is exactly?

My point was that the people who attend Pegida demonstrations in Dresden are demonstrating against Muslims while living in the part of Germany which by all accounts does not have any. And I do have the feeling that you will find few of the people who got good jobs at the one new VW factory attending Pegida... they got better things to do than to worry about non-existent muslim immigration.
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Old 17.12.2014, 03:07
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Re: Pegida marches against Islamisation of Europe

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Yes, Dresden is doing better than the rest of Saxony, but that does not mean that the unemployment isn't still far over average or that the GDP is near say Stuttgart or Munich. Your point is exactly?

My point was that the people who attend Pegida demonstrations in Dresden are demonstrating against Muslims while living in the part of Germany which by all accounts does not have any. And I do have the feeling that you will find few of the people who got good jobs at the one new VW factory attending Pegida... they got better things to do than to worry about non-existent muslim immigration.


But now some rather "local" questions :


> which city is better off now, Dresden or Leipzig ?
> why are so many ex GDR people so xenophobe ?
> is the Links-Partei also xenophobe, or open minded ?
> which one is better off, Brandenburg&Berlin or Saxony ?
> Is Thüringen making progress or stagnating ?
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