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  #1441  
Old 30.04.2015, 22:03
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Little known novelists desperate for publicity.

Also from the link "“If PEN as a free speech organization can’t defend and celebrate people who have been murdered for drawing pictures, then frankly the organization is not worth the name,” Mr. Rushdie (former PEN president) said. “What I would say to both Peter and Michael and the others is, I hope nobody ever comes after them.”"
Very good "tongue in cheek" article in the FT today about this topic, link here.
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  #1442  
Old 01.05.2015, 00:46
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I can't spontaneously think of any right-wing French intellectual, and I think the typical modern French intellectual is both anti-religion and if not explicitly left-wing, at least nominally anti-right-wing.

Maybe there are some right-wing guys who can give it back to the left-wing guys in TV debates and the like. And a good many have gone to the Grandes Ecoles and all that. But that alone doesn't make them proper intellectuals in the intellectual sense of the word if you follow what I mean. There's more to being intellectual than just being smart.
No no no, there is no right/left issues here among intellectuals about religion. The most difficult intellectuals to understand for non-French people are Zemmour and Finkielkraut. Bruckner and Glucksman are not exactly left-compatible anymore either. They are classified as right-wing big time but only in a French tradition. Don't try to read French politics and French cultural debate with anglo-saxon categories, it just can't be done. French right-wing of the Gaullian tradition is very pro-secularism, and even a faction of the Front national is pro-secularism in the French traditional way, only the strict catholic movement of the extreme right FN wants to change it. The issue is not on that left/right spectrum in my opinion, but nobody is asking for my opinion.
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  #1443  
Old 01.05.2015, 09:45
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I can't spontaneously think of any right-wing French intellectual, and I think the typical modern French intellectual is both anti-religion and if not explicitly left-wing, at least nominally anti-right-wing.

Maybe there are some right-wing guys who can give it back to the left-wing guys in TV debates and the like. And a good many have gone to the Grandes Ecoles and all that. But that alone doesn't make them proper intellectuals in the intellectual sense of the word if you follow what I mean. There's more to being intellectual than just being smart.
Aren't we all stuck in the Sartre era...
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  #1444  
Old 01.05.2015, 10:34
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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No no no, there is no right/left issues here among intellectuals about religion. The most difficult intellectuals to understand for non-French people are Zemmour and Finkielkraut. Bruckner and Glucksman are not exactly left-compatible anymore either. They are classified as right-wing big time but only in a French tradition. Don't try to read French politics and French cultural debate with anglo-saxon categories, it just can't be done. French right-wing of the Gaullian tradition is very pro-secularism, and even a faction of the Front national is pro-secularism in the French traditional way, only the strict catholic movement of the extreme right FN wants to change it. The issue is not on that left/right spectrum in my opinion, but nobody is asking for my opinion.
You can add to the list: Renaud Camus, Denis Tillinac....also Ivan Rioufol
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  #1445  
Old 03.05.2015, 12:22
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Faltrad wrote in my (dis)reputation entry:
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yes we do: the 1905 law in France. The best thing ever. Thanks for supporting it.
The praise of a tyrannical-style, centrally enacted revolution and the method of discourse correlate.
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  #1446  
Old 03.05.2015, 12:47
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The praise of a tyrannical-style, centrally enacted revolution and the method of discourse correlate.
Nice try.
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  #1447  
Old 09.05.2015, 00:34
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Four buses set on fire in Copenhagen; possibly linked to boycott Israel adverts on the buses, link here.
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  #1448  
Old 09.05.2015, 08:40
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Four buses set on fire in Copenhagen; possibly linked to boycott Israel adverts on the buses, link here.
I see the bus company caved in and stopped the Israel boycott adverts.
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  #1449  
Old 09.05.2015, 09:08
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

A US air strike in Yemen has reportedly killed Nasser al-Ansi, a top militant of al-Qaeda, who claimed his group was behind the attack on the Paris offices of French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo in January, in which 12 people died.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32629816
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  #1450  
Old 10.05.2015, 20:52
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Law of unintended consequences strikes again!
Norway has scrapped its longstanding blasphemy law, meaning it is now legal to mock the beliefs of others, in a direct response to January’s brutal attack on the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo.

Quote here.
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  #1451  
Old 10.05.2015, 23:34
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Norway has scrapped its longstanding blasphemy law, meaning it is now legal to mock the beliefs of others.
Not quite:
- With a blasphemy law, it is only legal to mock atheists' and secular views.
- Without blasphemy law, the protection laws against insults and defamation are applicable to all in the same way.
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  #1452  
Old 10.05.2015, 23:45
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Not quite:
- With a blasphemy law, it is only legal to mock atheists' and secular views.
- Without blasphemy law, the protection laws against insults and defamation are applicable to all in the same way.
But who would raise the case of insults and defamation against a religion?
If we talk about Muslim (which is the topic here) there is no formal structure so who would be allowed to stand for the religion in such a case?
Some countries have a Grand Imam or a Grand Mufti but they often do not have any legal standing. Anyway Norway does not have an official one.

In February Norwegian Muslims organised a peace vigil in Oslo in a show of solidarity with Jews a week after fatal shootings in Denmark targeted a synagogue and free speech seminar. Very positive expression.

Last edited by marton; 10.05.2015 at 23:48. Reason: peace vigil
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  #1453  
Old 11.05.2015, 00:06
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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But who would raise the case of insults and defamation against a religion?
The same as any other insults and defamation: the actual victim. It is wrong to imply that a blasphemy is the only concept that guarantee freedom of religion. From a French perspective, it's the exact other way around. A blasphemy law is a de facto censorship of secular culture. Totally unacceptable by French standards. It might be acceptable by other standards, I do understand that. Let the Norwegians decide their own.

Last edited by Faltrad; 11.05.2015 at 00:16.
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  #1454  
Old 11.05.2015, 11:29
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The same as any other insults and defamation: the actual victim. It is wrong to imply that a blasphemy is the only concept that guarantee freedom of religion. From a French perspective, it's the exact other way around. A blasphemy law is a de facto censorship of secular culture. Totally unacceptable by French standards. It might be acceptable by other standards, I do understand that. Let the Norwegians decide their own.
Âbout "The same as any other insults and defamation: the actual victim. " But in the case of insulting a religion then who would be the actual victim? I do not see God dropping into the local police station and complaining?
I do not see laws about insults and defamation being any help in the case of religions.
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  #1455  
Old 11.05.2015, 11:37
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The same as any other insults and defamation: the actual victim. It is wrong to imply that a blasphemy is the only concept that guarantee freedom of religion. From a French perspective, it's the exact other way around. A blasphemy law is a de facto censorship of secular culture. Totally unacceptable by French standards. It might be acceptable by other standards, I do understand that. Let the Norwegians decide their own.


Let me take this argument by the horns.


If blasphemy laws are censorship of secular culture, what are things like Holocaust denial laws? Censorship in the interests of good taste, censorship in defending values, whereby the point at which values permute into normatisms is a thin line? Why should one type of hate speech be acceptable and another be censored? Isn't the French position here trying to split hairs? Either you have free speech or you don't?
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  #1456  
Old 11.05.2015, 11:54
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Let me take this argument by the horns.


If blasphemy laws are censorship of secular culture, what are things like Holocaust denial laws? Censorship in the interests of good taste, censorship in defending values, whereby the point at which values permute into normatisms is a thin line? Why should one type of hate speech be acceptable and another be censored? Isn't the French position here trying to split hairs? Either you have free speech or you don't?
About "If blasphemy laws are censorship of secular culture, what are things like Holocaust denial laws?"

In the case of blasphemy laws people are denying God which is a question of belief not fact.
In the case of Holocaust denial it is a question of fact not belief.

I assume the blasphemy laws also do not allow cartoons whereas (I assume) the Holocaust denial laws are not against cartoons unless they contain denials.
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  #1457  
Old 11.05.2015, 11:56
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Let me take this argument by the horns.


If blasphemy laws are censorship of secular culture, what are things like Holocaust denial laws? Censorship in the interests of good taste, censorship in defending values, whereby the point at which values permute into normatisms is a thin line? Why should one type of hate speech be acceptable and another be censored? Isn't the French position here trying to split hairs? Either you have free speech or you don't?
One's history and the other's make-believe.

You're an adult and you can't see the difference?
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  #1458  
Old 11.05.2015, 12:27
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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One's history and the other's make-believe.

You're an adult and you can't see the difference?

But isn't the whole point about Holocaust denial laws not that they are lies (as freedom of speech allows you to disseminate lies, otherwise you would have to ban astrology for example) but that these particular lies are created with the intent of spreading hate and attacking the credibility and integrity of survivors and other witnesses and promoting hate against the Jewish religion and people in general.


Similarly, you could argue that a Mohamed caricature is intended to ridicule and attack the integrity of those who follow him and promote and justify hate against them.


To me, there isn't that much of a difference.
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  #1459  
Old 11.05.2015, 13:30
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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To me, there isn't that much of a difference.
That's probably why we need such laws. For people who can't see the difference.

Do you appreciate that to present a convincing argument that the holocaust didn't actually happen, on would need to present forged documentary evidence to back this up.
Would you be happy for political parties seeking to gain power in a country to do this or just individuals?

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  #1460  
Old 11.05.2015, 14:00
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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But isn't the whole point about Holocaust denial laws not that they are lies (as freedom of speech allows you to disseminate lies, otherwise you would have to ban astrology for example) but that these particular lies are created with the intent of spreading hate and attacking the credibility and integrity of survivors and other witnesses and promoting hate against the Jewish religion and people in general.


Similarly, you could argue that a Mohamed caricature is intended to ridicule and attack the integrity of those who follow him and promote and justify hate against them.


To me, there isn't that much of a difference.
About "otherwise you would have to ban astrology for example" but then you would have to ban religion which is also a belief system?

There is a basic difference between denying facts and denying beliefs
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