 | | | 
09.01.2015, 12:18
| | Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * ) | Quote: | |  | | | harsh comment: "the naivety of the mass of useful idiots". I've lived in Saudi, if you're a local and have never been let out how could you possibly not be "naive" or an "idiot"?
I couldn't say how religious the narrow ruling elite is in Saudi, but you're right, but many probably do believe in Islam or their interpretation of Islam | | | | | I've lived in Saudi too. And Bahrain. Judging by the number of Saudis that cross the causeway every Thursday night to indulge in drinking, gambling and screwing, they don't seem that naive to me.
| The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post: | | 
09.01.2015, 12:20
| | Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * ) | Quote: | |  | | | haha, yes, the ruling family wants to keep control of the oil money so they do what they have to to make it work | | | | | Yes, of course, we see that motive of power dynamics. Yet without the oil, that is how that society and culture was structured. They have always held Mecca. Who is actually saying they are not practising Islam, and on what grounds? Who judges Islam?
| 
09.01.2015, 12:22
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,453
Groaned at 85 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 2,918 Times in 1,195 Posts
| | Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * ) | Quote: | |  | | | I've lived in Saudi too. And Bahrain. Judging by the number of Saudis that cross the causeway every Thursday night to indulge in drinking, gambling and screwing, they don't seem that naive to me. | | | | | as you don't seem to bother to read any of my posts, here is the key part for you: " if you're a local and have never been let out how could you possibly not be "naive" or an "idiot"?"
| 
09.01.2015, 12:22
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,002
Groaned at 240 Times in 203 Posts
Thanked 23,090 Times in 9,811 Posts
| | Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * ) | Quote: | |  | | | I've lived in Saudi too. And Bahrain. Judging by the number of Saudis that cross the causeway every Thursday night to indulge in drinking, gambling and screwing, they don't seem that naive to me. | | | | | Maybe they were part of the cynic bandwagon of those who know its all rotten but won't rock the boat or speak up because the status quo benefits them.
| 
09.01.2015, 12:26
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: May 2008 Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,849
Groaned at 434 Times in 375 Posts
Thanked 18,184 Times in 9,672 Posts
| | Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings | Quote: | |  | | | they really like stealing crap cars, as its the last car they'll ever drive you'd have though they would want to go out in style.
hostages not good | | | | | It was clearly not a well planned escape; incredible how long it has taken to corner them.
I assume they are stuck with stealing cars because they want to keep their weapons with them; catching a bus laden with AK47s might be a bit obvious.
| 
09.01.2015, 12:29
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,828
Groaned at 204 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 18,567 Times in 7,574 Posts
| | Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings | Quote: | |  | | | ... catching a bus laden with AK47s might be a bit obvious. | | | | | Not if they make it to Switzerland, surely?
| The following 4 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post: | | 
09.01.2015, 12:32
| Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,986
Groaned at 69 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 5,074 Times in 1,802 Posts
| | Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * ) | Quote: | |  | | | The Saudis have actually been reliable allies that have honored their agreements. Very few groups in the region have been able to hold their end of agreements. Relationships are like that sometimes. You don't go into them judgemental. So they weren't judged by Western values, though that would have been a different allegation of racist ethnocentricity. | | | | | Saudi became an American ally for the same reason Israel did - they are who we were left with after the Russians chose their sides in the region. and the only reason Saudi has "held their end of agreements" is because US capital investment and military power has ensured the consistent rule of the totalitarian Saudi regime during a period in which other countries in the region have suffered multiple regimes.
| This user would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post: | | 
09.01.2015, 12:32
| | Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * ) | Quote: | |  | | | Maybe they were part of the cynic bandwagon of those who know its all rotten but won't rock the boat or speak up because the status quo benefits them. | | | | | Exactly that. They just hide behind Islam as an excuse. Basically they're bored, wealthy, live in a shite country that's achieved nothing and are jealous of the West. Unfortunately, there are people that believe they're dying for Islam too.
| This user would like to thank for this useful post: | | 
09.01.2015, 12:32
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: CH
Posts: 9,989
Groaned at 336 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 14,580 Times in 7,487 Posts
| | Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings | Quote: | |  | | | Not if they make it to Switzerland, surely? | | | | | As it looks now they actually might do that.... | This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post: | | 
09.01.2015, 12:33
| | Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * ) | Quote: | |  | | | By that measure, shouldn't the Israeli government be the final authority on Christian dogma, or to be fair, the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem? | | | | | Well that is partly my point. Who is judging Saudi Arabia, by what measure and value system? Who is judging their practice of Islam, and who is to say it isn't Islam?
The House of Saud comes from the Emir of Mecca. Is there or was there someone more rightfully in that place? If its wrong, where did it go wrong? And again, who is judging? | Quote: | |  | | | live in a shite country that's achieved nothing and are jealous of the West. | | | | | It is Sunni, no?
| This user would like to thank for this useful post: | | 
09.01.2015, 12:38
| | France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings There's a massive new pool of potential jihadists waiting to murder, so as long as the attitude toward Islamic terrorism in Europe and the world remains as it is, the West will some day - G-d forbid - be defeated. | 
09.01.2015, 12:38
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: May 2008 Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,849
Groaned at 434 Times in 375 Posts
Thanked 18,184 Times in 9,672 Posts
| | Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings | Quote: | |  | | | it really doesn't matter what the west do, all the while we (the royal we) are bombing people in 3rd world countries day after day this kind of thing will continue.
12 innocent people dying in a drone attack in pakistan wouldn't even make the news nowadays.
see the problem? | | | | | I still have a problem with this statement and understanding the causation.
Clearly the Paris killers had no problem killing practising Muslims. They killed two. They even went so far as to finish off an injured Muslim policeman who was no threat to them with a head shot!
So what basis is there to believe they would be concerned about Muslims being killed in far away countries?
| This user would like to thank marton for this useful post: | | 
09.01.2015, 12:43
| | Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings
I thought The Future had finally arrived when I got a talkie watch for Christmas.
Looks like I was a couple of weeks too early. | This user would like to thank for this useful post: | | 
09.01.2015, 12:45
| | Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings | Quote: | |  | | | I still have a problem with this statement and understanding the causation.
Clearly the Paris killers had no problem killing practising Muslims. They killed two. They even went so far as to finish off an injured Muslim policeman who was no threat to them with a head shot!
So what basis is there to believe they would be concerned about Muslims being killed in far away countries? | | | | |
To such jihadists, the context is the conflict between Islam vs. everything else. In the course of fighting for Islam, all other principles of morality are secondary. Just about everything is permissible so long as it is for the Jihad.
| 
09.01.2015, 12:46
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,002
Groaned at 240 Times in 203 Posts
Thanked 23,090 Times in 9,811 Posts
| | Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * ) | Quote: | |  | | | Well that is partly my point. Who is judging Saudi Arabia, by what measure and value system? Who is judging their practice of Islam, and who is to say it isn't Islam?
The House of Saud comes from the Emir of Mecca. Is there or was there someone more rightfully in that place? If its wrong, where did it go wrong? And again, who is judging? | | | | | AFAIK, Mohammed never appointed a succesor or provided directions over who was to lead his religion or clarify points of doubt after his death.
Thus no Muslim has through reasons of location or bloodline any greater claim to posess the "true Islam" than any other.
In Christianity, at least Jesus did appoint Saint Peter as his successor, although what happened after that is more contentious as the Catholic Church claims this authority has continued to pass from one pope to the next to this day, whereas the protestants claim it expired with Peter's death and that pronouncements of later popes are thus of no validity. The Sedecacantists say that many subsequent popes were valid but that the lineage of succesion was lost somewhere along the way and that there is thus presently no true pope.
| The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post: | | 
09.01.2015, 12:50
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,453
Groaned at 85 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 2,918 Times in 1,195 Posts
| | Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings | This user would like to thank MidfieldGeneral for this useful post: | | 
09.01.2015, 12:50
| | Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * ) | Quote: | |  | | | AFAIK, Mohammed never appointed a succesor or provided directions over who was to lead his religion or clarify points of doubt after his death.
Thus no Muslim has through reasons of location or bloodline any greater claim to posess the "true Islam" than any other. | | | | | True, although the moment Mohammed died is the moment it started splintering in various directions. The original splinter is still with us today in the conflict between Sunnis and Shiites.
So are we to jump into this fray now, over a thousand years later, to make a case with the House of Saud that they shouldn't be there? What is the point? And how does that translate into anything useful today?
| 
09.01.2015, 13:02
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,002
Groaned at 240 Times in 203 Posts
Thanked 23,090 Times in 9,811 Posts
| | Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings | Quote: | |  | | | | | | | | For somebody who admits to having read "the translations" rather than the real thing (and hence probably lacks not only the language but also French societal context to fully understand the jokes), I think he's in a good position to judge the wit and value (or their absence) of these caricatures.
It's a bit like saying South Park is shite if all you've ever watched is the German translation and haven't a clue about American culture, society or politics.
Last edited by amogles; 09.01.2015 at 13:21.
| The following 2 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post: | | 
09.01.2015, 13:09
| | Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings | Quote: | |  | | | For somebody who admits to having read "the translations" rather than the real thing (and hence probably lacks not only the language but also French societal context to fully understand the jokes), I think he's in a good position to judge the wit and value (or their absence) of these caricatures.
It's a bit like saying South Park is shite if all you've ever watched is the German translation. | | | | | Not to mention the importance of those cartoons to French culture. "Because if we’re all agreed on that: Charlie Hebdo is also a crap publication and people need to stop celebrating it and making martyrs out of its staff."
The poor French have lost so much of their cultural supremacy; they lost cinema, the music is corny, the food misunderstood, the engineering is wacky, and they argue more than they work. So this cartoon lampooning industry is about high in their pinnacle of cultural achievements. I mean, I myself find those cartoons tasteless and turn away as soon as I glimpse it. But no need to piss in French Cheerios at this moment in time.
| 
09.01.2015, 13:10
|  | A modal singularity | | Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Morgins, VS (and Alsace)
Posts: 8,874
Groaned at 363 Times in 235 Posts
Thanked 15,060 Times in 6,526 Posts
| | Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings
Looks like they've caught up with the suspects, but not yet captured them http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-30722098 |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | | Thread Tools | | Display Modes | Linear Mode |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:27. | |