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  #281  
Old 09.01.2015, 13:14
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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True, although the moment Mohammed died is the moment it started splintering in various directions. The original splinter is still with us today in the conflict between Sunnis and Shiites.

So are we to jump into this fray now, over a thousand years later, to make a case with the House of Saud that they shouldn't be there? What is the point? And how does that translate into anything useful today?
We could start off by being more principled. We give the likes of North Korea and Cuba a tough time for not conforming to our interpretations of freedom and Human Rights, but Saudi seems to have carte blanche. And this is not just a government thing. Consider the controversial movie The Interview, I don't think any government ordered or was behind that. But would Hollywood do something similar about Saudi? Why are we so concerned about not offending them? And its not just because they're Mulsim because Baron Sascha Cohen was able to make fun of his dictator figure who appeared to be a pastiche on Gaddhafi and Saddam Hussein rolled into one persona.

So there is this silk glove treatment which is not natural. But even besides that, its not for us to take a judgement on who or what true Islam is. That's a discussion Muslims have to have. But we don't need to be Muslims to see that something is seriously rotten in Saudi.
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  #282  
Old 09.01.2015, 13:15
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I still have a problem with this statement and understanding the causation.

Clearly the Paris killers had no problem killing practising Muslims. They killed two. They even went so far as to finish off an injured Muslim policeman who was no threat to them with a head shot!
So what basis is there to believe they would be concerned about Muslims being killed in far away countries?

You know muslims (at the moment) don't walk around with a great big badge saying "I'm a muslim" right? they killed a policeman first, he just so happened to be a muslim. as a poilceman he was a valid target (in there screwed up minds) really not a hard concept to understand
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  #283  
Old 09.01.2015, 13:19
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Excellent article.. and a welcome relief from much of the faux grief and misplaced sentiment flying around the blogosphere at present.
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  #284  
Old 09.01.2015, 13:22
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

his first mistake is his assumption that the primary purpose of satire is to be funny.
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  #285  
Old 09.01.2015, 13:30
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Meanwhile, Police have established a link between the Charlie Hebdo attack and the Montrouge shooting

(okay, not a huge surprise, but one more item of doubt done away with)

and it looks as if somebody is bringing in the heavy artillery ...





(time to get those 72 virgins lined up)

Last edited by 3Wishes; 09.01.2015 at 14:05. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #286  
Old 09.01.2015, 13:52
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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You know muslims (at the moment) don't walk around with a great big badge saying "I'm a muslim" right? they killed a policeman first, he just so happened to be a muslim. as a poilceman he was a valid target (in there screwed up minds) really not a hard concept to understand
They spoke to the policeman so they knew; all on video.

So now to the big question; if they believe it is good to kill certain Muslims (because of their occupations, beliefs or whatever) then how do they know the ones being killed by drones are not part of this group of "certain Muslims"?
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  #287  
Old 09.01.2015, 13:56
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

A good live feed to keep track of what's going on

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fra...tat.php#122405

Apparently the teachers in the primary school are keeping the kids calm by having them watch cartoons. Police have the area cordoned off.
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  #288  
Old 09.01.2015, 13:59
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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We could start off by being more principled. We give the likes of North Korea and Cuba a tough time for not conforming to our interpretations of freedom and Human Rights, but Saudi seems to have carte blanche. And this is not just a government thing. Consider the controversial movie The Interview, I don't think any government ordered or was behind that. But would Hollywood do something similar about Saudi? Why are we so concerned about not offending them? And its not just because they're Mulsim because Baron Sascha Cohen was able to make fun of his dictator figure who appeared to be a pastiche on Gaddhafi and Saddam Hussein rolled into one persona.

So there is this silk glove treatment which is not natural. But even besides that, its not for us to take a judgement on who or what true Islam is. That's a discussion Muslims have to have. But we don't need to be Muslims to see that something is seriously rotten in Saudi.
About " But would Hollywood do something similar about Saudi? " Because it would not be a commercial success? Would most people recognise any of the top Saudi figures, would they even understand the context?
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  #289  
Old 09.01.2015, 13:59
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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They spoke to the policeman so they knew; all on video.

So now to the big question; if they believe it is good to kill certain Muslims (because of their occupations, beliefs or whatever) then how do they know the ones being killed by drones are not part of this group of "certain Muslims"?
Simple

1) No non Muslim may kill a Muslim, whether or not the Muslim is true. The reverse, however, is allowed.
2) No "non-true" Muslim may kill a true Muslim. Likewise, the reverse is allowed.
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  #290  
Old 09.01.2015, 14:02
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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About " But would Hollywood do something similar about Saudi? " Because it would not be a commercial success? Would most people recognise any of the top Saudi figures, would they even understand the context?
Isn't this a chicken and egg question?

Would the public have recognized Ghaddaffi or Saddam Hussein in Sascha Cohen's film if said dictators hadn't been portrayed and caricatured the way they have been for years?

When did you last see a news anchor do a critical dissection of any individuals from the Saudi establishment? I guess most people have a vague concept of some bearded men in white but would struggle to name any of them, even less distinguish their individual faults.
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  #291  
Old 09.01.2015, 14:16
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Latest update:
- 1 hostage held.
- suspects are in the buildings of a printing family business
- a customer of the business was in the building and was asked by one of the suspects to go away and told him "we don't kill civilians" (sic). The customer alerted the police.
- The suspect of Montrouge attack that killed one police woman knows and has contacts with the suspects: the Kouachi brothers.
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  #292  
Old 09.01.2015, 14:23
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

the school children have been evacuated.
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  #293  
Old 09.01.2015, 14:26
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Not to mention the importance of those cartoons to French culture.

"Because if we’re all agreed on that: Charlie Hebdo is also a crap publication and people need to stop celebrating it and making martyrs out of its staff."

The poor French have lost so much of their cultural supremacy; they lost cinema, the music is corny, the food misunderstood, the engineering is wacky, and they argue more than they work. So this cartoon lampooning industry is about high in their pinnacle of cultural achievements. I mean, I myself find those cartoons tasteless and turn away as soon as I glimpse it. But no need to piss in French Cheerios at this moment in time.
Unfortunately they lost it in favour of what? I don't mind the French lost their cultural supremacy, if only something more valuable had been put in place.
Anyway, cartoons and satire are high in many other cultures. Difficult to understand that I see.
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  #294  
Old 09.01.2015, 14:30
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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.... But even besides that, its not for us to take a judgement on who or what true Islam is. That's a discussion Muslims have to have...
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Simple

1) No non Muslim may kill a Muslim, whether or not the Muslim is true. The reverse, however, is allowed.
2) No "non-true" Muslim may kill a true Muslim. Likewise, the reverse is allowed.

This was truly a golden opportunity that was tragically missed and ignored. It was overshadowed by this massacre. Egyptian President al-Sisi made this speech to Al-Azhar the day before the massacre:


"I am referring here to the religious clerics. … It's inconceivable that the thinking that we hold most sacred should cause the entire umma (Islamic world) to be a source of anxiety, danger, killing and destruction for the rest of the world. Impossible!

"That thinking — I am not saying 'religion' but 'thinking' — that corpus of texts and ideas that we have sacralized over the centuries, to the point that departing from them has become almost impossible, is antagonizing the entire world. It's antagonizing the entire world! ... All this that I am telling you, you cannot feel it if you remain trapped within this mindset. You need to step outside of yourselves to be able to observe it and reflect on it from a more enlightened perspective.

"I say and repeat again that we are in need of a religious revolution. You, imams, are responsible before Allah. The entire world, I say it again, the entire world is waiting for your next move … because this umma is being torn, it is being destroyed, it is being lost — and it is being lost by our own hands."



I think it would help, and is high time, to separate the sheep from the goats.
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  #295  
Old 09.01.2015, 14:32
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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(time to get those 72 virgins lined up)
I hope not.

They probably see dying in a hail of French bullets as glorious martyrdom. Don't give it to them.

I hope the police/army are under strict instructions to do everything in their power to bring them in alive and to answer for what they have done and then spend the rest of their lives in a tiny cell reflecting on their cowardice without the faintest hope of even a glimpse of a virgin.
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  #296  
Old 09.01.2015, 14:35
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

New alert in Porte de Vincennees (east of Paris) at 13:00 CET
Gunfires and probable hostages involved. Police intervention happening now and people are being evacuated from surrounding restaurants and shops.
Could be for the suspect from Montrouge attack.

EDIT: the attack is happening in a kosher grocery in porte de Vincennes.
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  #297  
Old 09.01.2015, 14:36
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

I can't see these guys walking out of there and going to prision, and it would take a hell of a lot of discipline for the french police not to go in guns blazing after they executed 2 of there own
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  #298  
Old 09.01.2015, 14:37
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I hope not.

I hope the police/army are under strict instructions to do everything in their power to bring them in alive and to answer for what they have done and then spend the rest of their lives in a tiny cell reflecting on their cowardice without the faintest hope of even a glimpse of a virgin.
Yes, they should be caught alive. They need to investigate how they knew the Charlie Hebdo board meeting was taking place at that time. There are tentacles to investigate here.

They should be offered all the Bollywood movies they can watch in lieu of a deferred martyrdom.

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  #299  
Old 09.01.2015, 14:38
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I can't see these guys walking out of there and going to prision, and it would take a hell of a lot of discipline for the french police not to go in guns blazing after they executed 2 of there own
they won't leave that building alive. They already announced that they want to die as martyr. Same scenario as Merah in Toulouse 3 years ago.
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  #300  
Old 09.01.2015, 14:39
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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his first mistake is his assumption that the primary purpose of satire is to be funny.
Perhaps, but it's supposed to be constructive criticism as well, designed to provoke thoughtful discussion. Some of the cartoons I've seen from Charlie were only intended to be provocative and, as the author says, just trolling.
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