The death penalty in France was abolished by President François Mitterand long ago, and later by the E.U. . In Switzerland. there WAS a death penalty in war times (Sonderbundskrieg 1847/48), Deutsch-Französicher Krieg, WW-ONE, WW-TWO) but even this was abolished in 1945 .




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What they wanted is to assert the supremacy of their particular creed above everything else. Two practicing devout Muslims of Arab origin, the corrector of Charlie and a policeman, got killed by them. The attackers in reality attacked Islam. That woman who is still alive now may have two enemies, the Police Corps and relatives + friends of those two. If she gets caught by police, her chance of survival may be better

My guess is "yes." Because otherwise, it seems just a bit too coincidental that they had chosen to attack a magazine that is so well-known (in France) for publishing satirical images of Mohammed, etc. If their religion (rather, their personal interpretations of their religion) was irrelevant, then why wouldn't they have attacked something or someone seemingly more random?

I do agree, though, with what someone else had mentioned here earlier... that it wasn't religion/Islam that caused them to do this, but it was likely more due to a predisposition toward violence. This is why, for example, some Muslims can be offended by anti-Muslim sentiments but not retaliate violently, while others (thankfully, the minority) do.

Oops, I see now that you edited your post (that I had quoted). Personally, I think that all people who follow religion are, to some extreme, brainwashed. And I definitely think that the majority of us are culturally brainwashed. But there are some Islamic scholars who have stressed that anyone willing to kill to defend Islam is not a "true" Muslim. It does seem that their holy book is open for interpretation (and misinterpretation)...as is, I think, the Bible.

Exactly those two Maghrebis killed have proven, that Maghrebi people have a chance to succeed. Policeman and corrector may not be top prestigious jobs, but respectable jobs. Even the Israeli embassy in Paris complained that the French media is infested by journalists of Arab origin. There also are many medical doctors of Arab origin in France. Strange is that Euro-Arabs follow the Jews by being active in journalism, transport, medicine , etc. As the Chief Rabbi of Paris put it a while ago the Anti-Semites hate us both, so that we are condemned to work together

No, they were (I hope so) simply SHOOTING them


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And are all Christians try their best to follow the same perfect bookS, of the same perfect prophet (Son of God) ?

I think someone here (Odile?) mentioned earlier that tensions between French Muslims and French non-Muslims have been pretty high. I also read that headscarves were banned in France, etc.*

This makes me wonder if these murderers had chosen the magazine not simply because of the images, etc. that it had published but more because it wanted the magazine to serve as a symbol for the anti-Muslim sentiments that are (perhaps?) so rampant in France... ?

* Curiously, though, does anyone know... Is it actually headscarves that have been banned in France (e.g. like the one in Nil's current avatar) or is it only the veiling of the entire face that has been banned? I seem to be finding conflicting info. via a Google search.

Nobody is - or has ever been - brainwashed. There is simply no such thing.

These dickheads acted under their own free will.

My questions are: who encouraged them, who trained them, who paid for their weapons?

I don't think we'll ever find out.

The Niqab (full face veil) has been banned, but the more modest head scarf is only banned in French schools (but not universities). I am not sure how it works in convent schools.. do the nuns have to take off their scarves??

Anyway its fair to say that the French left seem to be obsessed by this flimsy piece of fabric.

All head scarves have been banned in French school- not in France.
Girls cannot wear a simple scarf, coloured, with flowers, or whatever. Several of my Christian students in the UK wore headscarves btw (I think they were Plymouth brethren). Some of the best students, hardest working, polite and well behaved, were prevented from attending school if wearing any kind of head covering. Several Muslim students from my school were prevented from taking part in our French exchange- because they wore a scarf. Our best and keenest linguists. Which is why we stopped organising them.

Yes, Wooli, it is possible to succeed in France if you are Beur- but it is much much more difficult for them. I've had several Muslim assistantes from France staying with us in the UK, and it was disturbing to hear of their experiences- and they were 2nd generation, well integrated, perfect French, not wearing any special clothing. The way they were treated in the UK seemed like just a dream. Many stayed or came back to the UK, for that reason. (sorry Castro, posts crossed).

In the schools with which we organised exchanges- there were 2 sides obsessed with 'that little piece of fabric' - the far left and the far right- schools were full of them. The first time we came across this- the French students and teachers arrived by coach- and one teacher (feminist far left) came to say one of the students had not been able to come at the last minute because of a family bereavement. Our student was so disappointed, and so was the family who had redecorated a bedroom for the exchange student, and were really looking forward to this. We included our student in all the activities for the week- and told teachers she would be coming with us on the return leg. Teachers said the family would not be able to host- which seemed strange as the excuse was a 'bereavement'. So we asked them to find another family for her. I then phoned the teacher in charge every week (very right wing)- and he kept saying they wre unable to find a family. After 5 weeks, and the week before the exchange- I phoned the 6th Former who had stayed with us and told her what was happening. She knew the younger student well, as she'd tagged along to us for all the trips and acitivites. 5 mins later her mum phoned me back (I was going to be staying with them) and said Rashnee could come and stay with them too, the more the merrier.

I phone the teacher in charge with the good news. Response 'you can't do that - there is no way she is coming into our school with her scarf (simple coloured scarf)- if she does, we, all the staff, will walk out.

Indeed.

You know it's thirty years this year since the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior. Crafty buggers, these French secret services...

Yes, Wooli, it is possible to succeed in France if you are Beur- but it is much much more difficult for them. I've had several Muslim assistantes from France staying with us in the UK, and it was disturbing to hear of their experiences- and they were 2nd generation, well integrated, perfect French, not wearing any special clothing. The way they were treated in the UK seemed like just a dream. Many stayed or came back to the UK, for that reason. (sorry Castro, posts crossed).[/QUOTE]



Not so much has changed really since I in 1972 in London discussed those matters with a nice Moroccan girl who had lived in Paris for two years. We both were united in being Paris-Lovers, but agreed that many French (a minority, but awful) are MEAN and unbearable, and that French Police (both the Police Municipale and the Gendarmerie Nationale, but even the Police Judiciaire) are definitely crap. The feeling for FAIRPLAY of the Brits can be praised




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You are heavily exaggerating (and factually wrong)
> France suffers from tensions between Arabs and Continentals, between various groups of Euro-Arabs, between leftists and rightwingers, between Corsicans and others, between Basques and others, between 2nd-generation-pied-noirs and others B U T reality is that these groups in daily reality live together and co-operate in peaceful co-existence. As François Mitterand in a famous speech outlined, the amalgamation of cultures in France DID lead to lots of problems but at the bottom made France a better place.
> Anti-Arab (anti-Muslim) Sentiments are NOT rampant in France but of course existing. Such sentiments also affect Arab Christians in France (many from Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco) and Arab Jews (ex Morocco, etc)
> no, the Magazine was not chosen as a symbol of Anti-Muslim Sentiments as it never was anti-Muslim but to terrorize journalists.
> and two Facts at the end
- while Brits when hearing ISLAM very much have people from ex-British-India in mind, Muslims ** in France by 90%-plus are of Arab origin
- and many Arabs in France ** are Christians
** many of them are French citizens, many of them were born and grew up in France


another aspect is ethnics. The attackers apparently, in French, said about the policeman he is not Algerian and by that meant that he was of BERBER origin (roughly 50% of all Algerians are not of Arab but of Berber origin and his name gave him away) and Berbers are known to prefer French over Arabic

Sorry, I guess I used the term "brainwashed" a bit too non-literally in my post, in which I had equated brainwashing with cultural adaptation or adopting the norms of the culture in which one was born. While I realize this adaptation is not literally forced, I do think it occurs beyond the control of many or most of us. Unfortunately, I think history has proven that human nature tends to follow the ideologies of their own cultures more so than to question them. Hopefully, we're finally beginning to evolve away from that (in terms of religion).

How many young French Muslims have you talked to about their experience in finding apprenticeships, jobs, a flat even, going into a Club, simple every day things? I think you are being very naïve Wooli.

So well illustrated by Zebda's song (a group of young Beur musicians from Toulouse) 'ah non, ça va pas être possible, ah non'. Constant rejection is very condusive to lead to extremes eventually. Remember that the brothers were NOT brought up in a Muslim family environment, but were orphans brought up by State institutions.

One of our daughters spent a year at a French uni, in the 90s- she was truly shocked by the sheer racisms against Muslim/arab students. And also the constant police harrassment of them.

Thanks for the explanation. As I mentioned, I was only going on what someone else here had mentioned (about the tensions). Being that I don't live in France, I would have no way of deciding for myself. But this is one case where I'd be happy to be wrong.

Both. Yet, there are close to 0 chances that some Muslims from Kosovo for instance or Bosnia to commit something similar. (at least for the moment anyway)
I believe they follow an agenda which is wrapped up in "religion" (Islam). I don't think you can find more contradictions (i.e. calls for violence against non-believers) in Koran than in the Old Testament for instance. The endless discussions about Islam being a religion of peace or not it's idiotic in my view, the roots of the problems are others.
Anyway, refusing to discuss some things out of the fear of being accused of racism and islamophobia and always be reduced to silence not to offend some sensibilities is plain stupid and self-destructive for the Western world.

Yeah, cos neither country has a history of terrorism or organised violence...

In the name of religion? And more importantly, on a global scale? C'mon DB.

Both countries have dodgy madrassahs, funded by Saudi "philanthropists". Both countries have islamists and people fighting for ISIL.

I don't see why they should be considered to be immune from this current bout of silliness.

right.

Well, there is a daily trouble to whomever looks Beur in France. And the musicians you mentioned had to learn that they looked different
- nose gets larger than those of the others
- your Feelings differ from the majority
- you never get sunburnt, which is an advantage but seen as suspicious
- you are brown already at the beginning of the season and get dark-brown later and
hear yourself being described as he is a darkie
- people speak about you as that mulatto there even if you regard yourself as a White
- a mother of a school-colleage do not allow YOU to see the birthday present out of fear that her friends might conclude that Max has a Tschingg as a friend
- you suddenly, after a boy declared loudly Tschingge hinne aschtaa were at the end of the line with a Sicilian -- I went to Globus and he to Hug. I since 1967 never went to the Schallplatten-Abteilung of Jelmoli ever again
--- yes I admit, the last two personal experiences DID hit. I then thought I would forget These humiliations but never managed to do so. Such humiliations are ever burning wounds

The concerted and willful denial of the role of Islam does not help. I recognize the intent of this sentiment is to not offend. And I acknowledge that the vast majority of Muslims have very good hearts which they attribute to cultivating through Islam. But there is something rotten in it that really needs to be confronted. And it won't help to deny it. It is like enabling addict in a co-dependent relationship.

There is a power struggle going on within Islam itself for the hearts and minds of Muslims. It is a struggle for power and control. Charlie Hebdo is of about the least significance in this battle. But it was attacked as part of a revolutionary tactic. Textbook revolutionary tactic is to attack the center ground to polarize the population into two radical and extreme camps. Sending 3 or 4 guys for a psychological operation like this is quite easy and cheap for them score easy gains. Through this, they increase mindshare relevance for their cause, and they do gain support from the wider Muslim world. Hezbollah and the Shiites see this, as well as al-Sisi. They are on the other side of this faction.

I do believe modernized Muslims are also keenly aware of this, and are ready to talk about it. I've spoken to many. They are just at a loss of what to do about it. One the one hand, they know there is something wrong. On the other, they don't have the tools to speak up and address it.

Make no silly mistake. This is in fact a Muslim problem, and it is rooted in Islam. Muslims need our help, but not in an intervening way. If anything, they need moral support in confronting this. But this can only be addressed by Muslims themselves. The West is only a side-topic in this power struggle, and the collateral damage. It would be a mistake to step into the middle of this as if it is all about us.