Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #561  
Old 10.01.2015, 13:57
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings



Hey, Phos: why don't you go and get yourself a kebab or something, just for your own mental wellbeing, eh?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #562  
Old 10.01.2015, 14:03
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,526
Groaned at 324 Times in 265 Posts
Thanked 13,798 Times in 7,123 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
Well, there is a daily trouble to whomever looks Beur in France. And the musicians you mentioned had to learn that they looked different
- nose gets larger than those of the others
- your Feelings differ from the majority
- you never get sunburnt, which is an advantage but seen as suspicious
- you are brown already at the beginning of the season and get dark-brown later and
hear yourself being described as he is a darkie
- people speak about you as that mulatto there even if you regard yourself as a White
- a mother of a school-colleage do not allow YOU to see the birthday present out of fear that her friends might conclude that Max has a Tschingg as a friend
- you suddenly, after a boy declared loudly Tschingge hinne aschtaa were at the end of the line with a Sicilian -- I went to Globus and he to Hug. I since 1967 never went to the Schallplatten-Abteilung of Jelmoli ever again
--- yes I admit, the last two personal experiences DID hit. I then thought I would forget These humiliations but never managed to do so. Such humiliations are ever burning wounds
Wolli, it is extremely sad that in this day and age some people face these "humiliations"...you call them humilliation I call them harassment and plain stupid, evil mockery.
Yet, neither you nor other people in this situation blown people or buildings into pieces.
Most marginalised, unwanted, stigmatised, destitute people choose to wear their cross in dignity.
Reply With Quote
  #563  
Old 10.01.2015, 14:04
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
Hey, Phos: why don't you go and get yourself a kebab or something, just for your own mental wellbeing, eh?
I prefer schawarma. But did I say something wrong?

An old jewish friend, an Auschwitz survivor, tell me they use to sew jewels into the hemming of their clothing, in case they have to take flight. A survival skill passed down through generation. They prepare to go at a moment's notice.

'Every single French Jew I know has left Paris'

So I wonder how the Parisians would feel if the 20th and 19th arrondisement demanded to be recognized as a state with its own military. I wonder how this event shifts perspective in regards tthe Israel/Palestine question.

Last edited by Phos; 10.01.2015 at 14:19.
Reply With Quote
  #564  
Old 10.01.2015, 14:12
ratbag's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zürich
Posts: 474
Groaned at 21 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 374 Times in 203 Posts
ratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeable
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
The concerted and willful denial of the role of Islam does not help. I recognize the intent of this sentiment is to not offend. And I acknowledge that the vast majority of Muslims have very good hearts which they attribute to cultivating through Islam. But there is something rotten in it that really needs to be confronted. And it won't help to deny it. It is like enabling addict in a co-dependent relationship.

There is a power struggle going on within Islam itself for the hearts and minds of Muslims. It is a struggle for power and control. Charlie Hebdo is of about the least significance in this battle. But it was attacked as part of a revolutionary tactic. Textbook revolutionary tactic is to attack the center ground to polarize the population into two radical and extreme camps. Sending 3 or 4 guys for a psychological operation like this is quite easy and cheap for them score easy gains. Through this, they increase mindshare relevance for their cause, and they do gain support from the wider Muslim world. Hezbollah and the Shiites see this, as well as al-Sisi. They are on the other side of this faction.

I do believe modernized Muslims are also keenly aware of this, and are ready to talk about it. I've spoken to many. They are just at a loss of what to do about it. One the one hand, they know there is something wrong. On the other, they don't have the tools to speak up and address it.

Make no silly mistake. This is in fact a Muslim problem, and it is rooted in Islam. Muslims need our help, but not in an intervening way. If anything, they need moral support in confronting this. But this can only be addressed by Muslims themselves. The West is only a side-topic in this power struggle, and the collateral damage. It would be a mistake to step into the middle of this as if it is all about us.
Hmmmm.
Valid point.
But how many more thousands have to be slaughtered before the major players address this issue publically.
There are, reputedly, thousands of European Jihadists engaged in the butchery in Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq.
Maybe we should instigate an official campaign to recruit like-minded individuals and ensure they never return?
They will eventually slope back with their hearts burning bright with hatred.
Thanks to morons Bush and TB liar.
Reply With Quote
  #565  
Old 10.01.2015, 14:17
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,210
Groaned at 86 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 5,788 Times in 2,254 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

As the press and police are unfolding the story (in french) of the porte de Vincennes attack, there appears what I call the humble and discrete hero that makes us keep hope in humankind.
This time his name is Lassana Bathily a muslim malian employee of the kosher supermarket. He kept about 15 hostages (including a 2y old kid) hidden in the supermarkets fridge in the basement. He pushed the hostages in the fridge, turned it off and switched off the light. He told them to keep quiet as he is going upstairs. The phones of the hostages were used by police to communicate and locate them....and they knew they were safe in the basement. One of the hostage joked with Lassana and told him it was cold down there but that he is going to open some expensive wine bottles spotted there.
__________________
Resist, support, donate: ACLU
They tried to bury us, they did not know that we are seeds (Mexican proverb)
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank MrVertigo for this useful post:
  #566  
Old 10.01.2015, 14:22
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
Hmmmm.
Valid point.
But how many more thousands have to be slaughtered before the major players address this issue publically.
There are, reputedly, thousands of European Jihadists engaged in the butchery in Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq.
Maybe we should instigate an official campaign to recruit like-minded individuals and ensure they never return?
They will eventually slope back with their hearts burning bright with hatred.
Thanks to morons Bush and TB liar.

The West needs to do its utmost to protect itself. This means draconian security measures. But all of this is only in the management of symptoms, and none of it will really address the core of the issue. The core of the issue is the hearts and minds of Muslims in the Islamic world. Only they can solve this for themselves.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #567  
Old 10.01.2015, 14:32
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,400
Groaned at 434 Times in 338 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
The West needs to do its utmost to protect itself. This means draconian security measures. But all of this is only in the management of symptoms, and none of it will really address the core of the issue. The core of the issue is the hearts and minds of Muslims in the Islamic world. Only they can solve this for themselves.
As long as the west has a huge amount of people going there to fight, it will be the west'a problem. Fix the west and they won't go fight the jihad.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Nil for this useful post:
  #568  
Old 10.01.2015, 14:33
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 9,616
Groaned at 405 Times in 349 Posts
Thanked 17,182 Times in 9,249 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
As the press and police are unfolding the story (in french) of the porte de Vincennes attack, there appears what I call the humble and discrete hero that makes us keep hope in humankind.
This time his name is Lassana Bathily a muslim malian employee of the kosher supermarket. He kept about 15 hostages (including a 2y old kid) hidden in the supermarkets fridge in the basement. He pushed the hostages in the fridge, turned it off and switched off the light. He told them to keep quiet as he is going upstairs. The phones of the hostages were used by police to communicate and locate them....and they knew they were safe in the basement. One of the hostage joked with Lassana and told him it was cold down there but that he is going to open some expensive wine bottles spotted there.
Amazing how many bad situations have a nugget of hope and gold in them.
Reply With Quote
  #569  
Old 10.01.2015, 14:46
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
As long as the west has a huge amount of people going there to fight, it will be the west'a problem. Fix the west and they won't go fight the jihad.
They will fight their Jihad, but less against the West. They will be fighting amongst each other.

I do agree it would be better to step back than to engage militarily. But if there is a security threat against the West, it is perfectly legitimate to go in and take it out. I think this is what Obama is trying to do now.
Reply With Quote
  #570  
Old 10.01.2015, 14:54
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
The West needs to do its utmost to protect itself. This means draconian security measures.
Funny you should say that.

It's strange. We didn't need "draconian security measures" to deal with the much more effective IRA, ETA, RAF and so on. But now we have a - largely - rather useless group of terrorists of a different stripe, and all of a sudden we need "draconian security measures".

I don't recall 88 000 police officers in full military gear being mobilised to chase the Birmingham pub bombers, or the bastards who shot a couple of squaddies waiting for a train at our local station, or any of the other massacres and murders of the IRA. But then, there was no such thing as CNN, Youtube or Twitter in those days. A performance is only worth putting on if there's an audience to enjoy it.

I'm still not convinced that the rather meagre threat of islamists is justification for "draconian security measures", but then I'm an old fashioned conservative, with fuddy duddy ideas about the role of the state and personal freedom.

What socialists, militant securalists and other statist types think is an appropriate response may possibly differ somewhat from my preferences.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #571  
Old 10.01.2015, 14:59
OSueco's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Aargau
Posts: 1,469
Groaned at 317 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 1,265 Times in 624 Posts
OSueco has a reputation beyond reputeOSueco has a reputation beyond reputeOSueco has a reputation beyond reputeOSueco has a reputation beyond repute
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
The West needs to do its utmost to protect itself. This means draconian security measures. But all of this is only in the management of symptoms, and none of it will really address the core of the issue. The core of the issue is the hearts and minds of Muslims in the Islamic world. Only they can solve this for themselves.
how can europe protect itself when the problems lies within...

we are talking about delusional fanatics which are just minor part contributing to somebody gaining power

and as long as the west interferes with the Islamic world, war-faring, killing innocents, draining it of its resources etc, what can you expect? Although this is used as an "excuse" for a much more complicated "game"

in the end this is not a matter of religion and as long as "we" are keep treating as such it will only get worse
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank OSueco for this useful post:
  #572  
Old 10.01.2015, 15:01
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
and as long as the west interferes with the Islamic world, war-faring, killing innocents, draining it of its resources etc,
To be fair, though, this is a two way street and has been for a millennium and a half now. Let's not pretend that Muslims are somehow uniquely wronged and that Christendom is always the aggressor, because that's just bollocks.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #573  
Old 10.01.2015, 15:08
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
I don't recall 88 000 police officers in full military gear being mobilised to chase the Birmingham pub bombers, or the bastards who shot a couple of squaddies waiting for a train at our local station, or any of the other massacres and murders of the IRA. But then, there was no such thing as CNN, Youtube or Twitter in those days. A performance is only worth putting on if there's an audience to enjoy it.

I'm still not convinced that the rather meagre threat of islamists is justification for "draconian security measures", but then I'm an old fashioned conservative, with fuddy duddy ideas about the role of the state and personal freedom.

What socialists, militant securalists and other statist types think is an appropriate response may possibly differ somewhat from my preferences.
It is clearly for show, and politics is all about show. The truth is the government can't really protect the people. But if that were to become more evident, you will have people deciding to protect themselves. That show of force is to demonstrate to the population that their nanny is watching.



Quote:
View Post
how can europe protect itself when the problems lies within...

we are talking about delusional fanatics which are just minor part contributing to somebody gaining power
It does not have much of a choice. If the government does not protect its people, it will illegitimize itself, and some people will rightfully decide to protect themselves.



Quote:
View Post
in the end this is not a matter of religion and as long as "we" are keep treating as such it will only get worse
Some truth to this is that Islam has a political nature, and this is part of its political nature, as oppose to its personal religious nature. But at the center of this topic, that elephant in the middle of the room, you can't rationally ignore. I don't think chanting a mantra changes it.
Reply With Quote
  #574  
Old 10.01.2015, 15:09
olygirl's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: d' Innerschwiiz
Posts: 6,464
Groaned at 282 Times in 192 Posts
Thanked 14,757 Times in 4,534 Posts
olygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

What do all these terrorist attacks have in common? A lowered threshhold of inhibition to kill for a cause.


For me, the key is how to higher the threshhold forcing alternative solutions to be found.
Reply With Quote
  #575  
Old 10.01.2015, 15:16
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
What do all these terrorist attacks have in common? A lowered threshhold of inhibition to kill for a cause.

For me, the key is how to higher the threshhold forcing alternative solutions to be found.
It definitely is a value proposition, "Die for the cause, and you will be a hero to Allah for eternity."

This value proposition really needs to be rebutted by Muslims themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #576  
Old 10.01.2015, 15:16
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
you will have people deciding to protect themselves.



... some people will rightfully decide to protect themselves.
I can't see that happening. We've had a couple of decades (more, if you count the hounding of people related to Salman Rushdie) of islamist bullshit now, and yet the reprisals on the ground have been pretty thin on the ground. Sure, there've been a couple of firebombed mosques, the occasional pig's head chucked in a doorway, a fair few physical and verbal attacks on women wearing hijabs, but where is the organised, orchestrated response that you'd expect to see during a proper civil conflict? It simply doesn't exist.

People aren't stupid. This isn't a real battle. It's a confection, very accurately predicted by Mr Orwell all the way back in 1948, and most people don't really give a bollocks one way or the other, comments on message boards and the Daily Mail comments section notwithstanding.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #577  
Old 10.01.2015, 15:18
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
Yeah, cos neither country has a history of terrorism or organised violence...

Sorry but BOTH countries have a rich history of terrorism and organised violence and of "Blutrache"
Reply With Quote
  #578  
Old 10.01.2015, 15:19
olygirl's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: d' Innerschwiiz
Posts: 6,464
Groaned at 282 Times in 192 Posts
Thanked 14,757 Times in 4,534 Posts
olygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
It definitely is a value proposition, "Die for the cause, and you will be a hero to Allah for eternity."

This value proposition really needs to be rebutted by Muslims themselves.


To be honest, this threshhold of inhibition (Hemmschwelle in German) can be applied to any cause, not just to Muslim extremists.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank olygirl for this useful post:
  #579  
Old 10.01.2015, 15:27
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Another perspective from a UK cartoonist:

http://gu.com/p/44mga

I had forgotten about Siné (Sinet) being sacked by Charlier Hebdo for some antisemetic comments. So what is the difference- free speech against Islam and National Front, but not against Zionism?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #580  
Old 10.01.2015, 15:28
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,023
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,716 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Quote:
View Post
Wolli, it is extremely sad that in this day and age some people face these "humiliations"...you call them humilliation I call them harassment and plain stupid, evil mockery.
Yet, neither you nor other people in this situation blown people or buildings into pieces.
Most marginalised, unwanted, stigmatised, destitute people choose to wear their cross in dignity.

Had somebody put a bomb into the hands of me and that Sicilian right then there would possibly now be a new building on that site at Bahnhofstrasse -- we were VERY angry, but much smaller than the others of same age.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
charlie hebdo




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe) olygirl International affairs/politics 2904 15.11.2018 13:45
Terrorist attack in Nice, France - truck runs over crowd Troublawesome International affairs/politics 347 08.01.2017 14:22
Will borders with CH be affected after terrorist attacks? McTAVGE Daily life 19 15.11.2015 18:14
How many EF members had actually read Charlie Hebdo before this week? Guest International affairs/politics 114 17.01.2015 08:58
UK Passport office in France - a cautionary tale maxhd Complaints corner 21 07.09.2010 10:34


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0