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  #601  
Old 10.01.2015, 17:40
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The Koran is the sequel.

In many ways, Islam can be seen as the Orthodox Christian reformation. A sort of back-to-basics movement.

The parallels with some of the more extreme protestant churches are quite entertaining when you start to compare them...
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And yet, in many, many ways (most) Orthodox Church is very similar to the Catholic Church. Of course, the former rejecting the Papal authority.
Not surprising, the same Abrahamic God in all cases.
Abrahamic religions (Jews, Christians, Muslims) are the monotheistic faiths of West Asian origin, emphasizing and tracing their common origin to Abraham or recognizing a spiritual tradition identified with him.

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The main difference? Ian Hislop's smug gittery hasn't resulted in multiple bereavement.
Yet, shhh....
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Old 10.01.2015, 17:48
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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As the press and police are unfolding the story (in french) of the porte de Vincennes attack, there appears what I call the humble and discrete hero that makes us keep hope in humankind.
This time his name is Lassana Bathily a muslim malian employee of the kosher supermarket. He kept about 15 hostages (including a 2y old kid) hidden in the supermarkets fridge in the basement.
Freezer, actually.

Tom
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  #603  
Old 10.01.2015, 17:53
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I grew up with Harakiri, it's original version, with Wollinsky and all in the 60s. Then when I lived in the UK, visiting friends would bring me copies when they visited, same with Le Canard Enchaîné. Just like UK friends now bring me Private Eye - or even gardening magazines

Now perhaps we could discuss the difference with the kind of free speech and irreverence shown by Private Eye- as compared to Charlie Hebdo or Le Canard? Any thoughts?
I used to be a subscriber of "Le canard enchaîné" but never to "Charlie hebdo"....I don't even remember buying one. Le Canard is more about scoop and serious journalist investigations targeting corrupted politicians from all sides. It's more about the secrets of french political class. it shares with Charlie Hebdo the irreverent nature....but not the whole bawdy, smutty and Gallic side of Charlie.
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  #604  
Old 10.01.2015, 18:17
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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A big difference with someone who has studied the texts, be it the Bible or the Quoran- discussed them with family, friends and 'leaders' with deeper knowledge of them- be they Imam or Priest- and those who have just taken in a few snippets out of context, from others with a militarist/terrorist aim.

Anyone who has studied the texts about Jihad, and their context in war- will not come to the same conclusion as those 2 guys- and other ****ed people- yes, many of them who are susceptible to be brain-washed for all sorts of reasons. Same for many young zionist, who use the Torah to validate the occupation of Palestine.

Think how easy it would be to do the same by quoting many parts of the Old Testament, for instance.
These two were pot smoking western kids, with dreams of pop stardom, whose views were radicalized by someone who studied the Quran.


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Do you think bin Laden or the current ISIS Caliph would Martyr himself for Allah? Of course not. They persuade angry young men to die instead.
I agree, they really should go first. The mark of true leadership.



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http://www.islamicity.com/articles/A...ef=IC1012-4388

I believe the above article will help to understand my statement.
Does this purport to state there are "real" muslims and "fake" muslims?

Are these real Muslims or fake Muslims?
‘The Muslims Have Turned Paris Into a Battlefield:’ Islamists Celebrate Terror Attack Against Charlie Hebdo/
BSP Politician Offers Charlie Hebdo Attackers '51-Crore Reward

Who decides which is Islam and which is not?


Are you perhaps trying to replace objective facts with sentiment?
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  #605  
Old 10.01.2015, 18:27
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

How do you apply this to, say, Christians- whose interpretation of the Bible comes in 1000s and more guises? Including of course the 'cultural kind- those who are no longer believers that state vehemently, day in, day out, that we 'have to fight for our Christian values'.

I feel so lost today, and perhaps also very British- surrounded here by French and Swiss who seem to come in 2 versions. Those who say we should execute all Muslims at birth, and send the rest 'back where they come from' (doh!) unless they become more French than the French, Swiss than the Swiss- and the other group who categorically state that Free Speech has to prevail, come what may - as long as it does not include a) discussing 'free speech and its possible limits' and b) discussing why Charlie Hebdo never lampooned zionism and sacked one of their founder members in the 90s for mocking Zarkozy's pseudo conversion to Judaism to marry a tycoon's daughter, and for wanting to mock and criticize zionism and the treatment of Palestinians.
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  #606  
Old 10.01.2015, 18:27
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Who decides which is Islam and which is not?
Apparently, everybody for themselves. Of course everyone is right and the other is wrong.
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  #607  
Old 10.01.2015, 18:28
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Fixed....oops....good thing I'm not in Germany!

It just shows what a complete farce je suis Charlie is.

If you want freedom of speech it needs to be universal with no exceptions I'm afraid.
That is a good point and it's not like self-censorship is a new concept for us, most of us are pretty good with keeping a lid on the N-word. Still, that doesn't mean it's appropriate to consider it in the case of Charlie Hebdo. If we're looking for precedent and justification, in the case of the anti-negationism law it's a genocide and, in the case of the N-word, enslavement of an entire people on a continent. I sorta feel less compelled to not mock a guy from a book some people are really into, to the point where you can't even draw him. when it's long been OK to do so to every other religion and is now a staple of satire. You're gonna have to hit me with some actual historical trauma and not just be overzealous fanboys for a guy from the 7th century if you want that benevolent-but-still-kinda-racist self-censorship. What makes these attacks even more tragic and senseless for people who believe in freedom of speech/expression is that the motivations behind it are, quite frankly, a lame reason to get mad.
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  #608  
Old 10.01.2015, 18:53
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Special edition of Charlie here.
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  #609  
Old 10.01.2015, 18:58
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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objective facts with sentiment?
Objective fact is that Islam is a violent ideology. The fact that x% of Muslims are not violent towards non Muslims does not mean anything with regards to what Islamic text says about non-Muslims.

Yes the other two Abrahamic faith's text has plenty of violent stuff in it too. Am I going around calling Christianity or Judaism religion of peace? Although out of Mo, Jesus, Dalai Lama I would say Mo sticks out like a sore thumb for all the wrong reasons

Odile is going on about how tough it is for Muslims in France, I would say the situation is similar for all immigrants who are non-white in western Europe. Muslims have created an extra barrier for themselves on top which is a direct result of their religion. Btw try being a minority in a Muslim country, not fun!

So someone was sacked for Jewish jokes from the Charlie Hebdo? Well we don't know the full details but he was only sacked not killed. The guy was free to open his own publication and draw Jewish cartoons. Charlie Hebdo was under no obligation to make cartoons about each and every religion

I am currently reading this book by a X-Muslim, very informative.

P.S-Also as some people are hell bent on twisting the meaning of the word racism to be PC, I am surprised that no one has said that saying IRA were better than Jihadis = racism
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  #610  
Old 10.01.2015, 18:59
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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This Sunday at 'our' Church, the first ecumenical service of the year- of course 'just' Protestants and Catholics- but what a huge step. I grew up in a very divided Protestant versus Catholic era here- my father from a staunch Catholic family, and my mother a Protestant divorcee with a child (+ from very different 'social' backgrounds)- hell on earth it was.
He he, I've attended many services in various churches wondering if the regulars would figure out I'm an "outsider". (sometimes I was invited by someone else, but still). I for one think it's normal to just enter any church if I feel like I need it. And it doesn't matter which of them.
But back to your parents, don't you think the fact they were coming from different social backgrounds was weighing more? (I'm also coming from a similar family)
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  #611  
Old 10.01.2015, 18:59
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Special edition of Charlie here.
no....it's a special edition of the swiss magazine "l'Hebdo" with a Charlie mention
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  #612  
Old 10.01.2015, 19:04
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Objective fact is that Islam is a violent ideology. The fact that x% of Muslims are not violent towards non Muslims does not mean anything with regards to what Islamic text says about non-Muslims.

Yes the other two Abrahamic faith's text has plenty of violent stuff in it too. Am I going around calling Christianity or Judaism religion of peace? Although out of Mo, Jesus, Dalai Lama I would say Mo sticks out like a sore thumb for all the wrong reasons

Odile is going on about how tough it is for Muslims in France, I would say the situation is similar for all immigrants who are non-white in western Europe. Muslims have created an extra barrier for themselves on top which is a direct result of their religion. Btw try being a minority in a Muslim country, not fun!

So someone was sacked for Jewish jokes from the Charlie Hebdo? Well we don't know the full details but he was only sacked not killed. The guy was free to open his own publication and draw Jewish cartoons. Charlie Hebdo was under no obligation to make cartoons about each and every religion

I am currently reading this book by a X-Muslim, very informative.

P.S-Also as some people are hell bent on twisting the meaning of the word racism to be PC, I am surprised that no one has said that saying IRA were better than Jihadis = racism
are you talking about the Siné case? If yes then you are confusing a lot of things like the rest of the post.
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Old 10.01.2015, 19:07
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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no....it's a special edition of the swiss magazine "l'Hebdo" with a Charlie mention
Ah well. You can keep the thanks, marton.
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  #614  
Old 10.01.2015, 19:07
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Objective fact is that Islam is a violent ideology. The fact that x% of Muslims are not violent towards non Muslims does not mean anything with regards to what Islamic text says about non-Muslims.

Yes the other two Abrahamic faith's text has plenty of violent stuff in it too. Am I going around calling Christianity or Judaism religion of peace? Although out of Mo, Jesus, Dalai Lama I would say Mo sticks out like a sore thumb for all the wrong reasons

Odile is going on about how tough it is for Muslims in France, I would say the situation is similar for all immigrants who are non-white in western Europe. Muslims have created an extra barrier for themselves on top which is a direct result of their religion. Btw try being a minority in a Muslim country, not fun!

So someone was sacked for Jewish jokes from the Charlie Hebdo? Well we don't know the full details but he was only sacked not killed. The guy was free to open his own publication and draw Jewish cartoons. Charlie Hebdo was under no obligation to make cartoons about each and every religion

I am currently reading this book by a X-Muslim, very informative.

P.S-Also as some people are hell bent on twisting the meaning of the word racism to be PC, I am surprised that no one has said that saying IRA were better than Jihadis = racism
About "with regards to what Islamic text says about non-Muslims."

You mean this text?
“Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” (Abu Dawud)
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Old 10.01.2015, 19:14
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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About "with regards to what Islamic text says about non-Muslims."

You mean this text?
“Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” (Abu Dawud)
If you tax a non Muslim to death then he won't be of much use Come on you know I can do copy and paste too.
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Old 10.01.2015, 21:15
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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So tell me now... did those guys do what they did in the name of religion- as Muslims who understand Islam- or who have been brained washed?
honestly, is there a difference?



P.S. and not just with Islam, btw, the same applies to Judaism, Christianity or any other organized religion.
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Old 10.01.2015, 21:20
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Apparently, everybody for themselves. Of course everyone is right and the other is wrong.
Exactly. Those terrorists are Muslim and their movement is for Islam. Who truly believes otherwise? If someone doesn't like this fact, trying to curb free speech about it, and trying to blind people to its reality is absurd. You have to deal with those Muslim terrorists and their interpretation of Islam, not those who are witnessing it.

I'm glad to see this attitude from a Charlie Hebdo staffer, and am hopeful they will come back. I'm looking forward to the first clear demonstration of how those Islamic terrorists did not win. I would be relieved to see them publish something very provocative.
‘We vomit’ on Charlie Hebdo’s sudden friends, staff cartoonist says


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What makes these attacks even more tragic and senseless for people who believe in freedom of speech/expression is that the motivations behind it are, quite frankly, a lame reason to get mad.
For one, they really ought to stop watching cartoons, and pick up a book instead or do something more useful. I, for one, never thought twice about Charlie Hebdo. Now, I feel compelled to buy every issue I can find, or simply donate money. I see only 1 political party in this situation - Humanity.
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Old 10.01.2015, 21:26
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Exactly. Those terrorists are Muslim and their movement is for Islam. Who truly believes otherwise? If someone doesn't like this fact, trying to curb free speech about it, and trying to blind people to its reality is absurd. You have to deal with those Muslim terrorists and their interpretation of Islam, not those who are witnessing it.

I'm glad to see this attitude from a Charlie Hebdo staffer, and am hopeful they will come back. I'm looking forward to the first clear demonstration of how those Islamic terrorists did not win. I would be relieved to see them publish something very provocative.
‘We vomit’ on Charlie Hebdo’s sudden friends, staff cartoonist says
What an arse. Not you, Phos
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Old 10.01.2015, 21:31
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I, for one, never thought twice about Charlie Hebdo. Now, I feel compelled to buy every issue I can find, or simply donate money
‘We vomit’ on Charlie Hebdo’s sudden friends, staff cartoonist says
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Old 10.01.2015, 21:40
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Respect someone elses faith and sacntities and in return they should respect your freedom of speech. No need to insult someone's religion, just as there is no need to condemn someone's ability to excersize free speech. Both sides require responsibility, which a minority on each side seem to lack unfortunately.
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