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Old 11.01.2015, 15:38
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I actually very much agree with you and appreciate what you wrote. I'm not implying that we should limit (by law) the freedom of speech -- (though I do believe we already have). I am only suggesting that perhaps we ought to use our better judgment before utilizing it.

Now, I realize that some people (perhaps many) do "get off" on attacking and/or offending the beliefs, etc. of others. But I am not one of them. I guess this is the reason why it's so difficult for me to understand, relate to, or appreciate this mentality.
the lovely thing is that you don't have to understand, relate to or appreciate any of those things- it's all about choice. i personally find it refreshing when people push the limits. it allows discussion, reflection and when done with thoughtful people- if not understanding at least acceptance of different kinds of views and ideals.

i also applaud people who can be detached from the fear of not being accepted, of being criticized or even threatened and continue to produce work that is pushing the limits regardless. if not for people who do so, we would be in a very oppressive society.
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  #742  
Old 11.01.2015, 15:41
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Marseille has an estimated 30 to 40 percent Muslim population and has been ranked as the most dangerous city in Europe. Coincidence? Of course not. Muslim immigrants also make up the vast majority of Frances prison inmates.

France has suffered particularly badly with mass influx of of unskilled and uneducated immigrants, many of which are capable of contributing little, if anything, to society, and certainly aren't interested in preserving the French culture and way of life, which as we all know the French are particularly (and understandably) protective



Do you even know what you are talking about? I'm certainly having trouble making sense of it.
Do YOU know what you are talking about? Have you ever lived in France, or indeed Marseille. What came first, chicken or the egg? A huge % of Marseille population are 3rd, 4th generation Spanish and Italians, and many of them NF members and perhaps more racist than the French. Do you know first hand the conditions those Muslim 'immigrants' = French citizens btw, for 2, 3 or more generations of North African (arab) In Lyon? In parts of Paris or Toulouse?

One of our daughters spent a year studying in Marseille - and the stories she could tell about the way those communities and their (FRench) citizens of north-african origins are treated, isolated, excluded, etc? are hair-raising.

Todays heroin for me is the magnificently dignified and calm Latifa ibn Zatiem, the mother of Imad, the first Muslim soldier killed in Toulouse in 2012 by a Islamist- and who decries the conditions in the Cités, the lack of opportunities for education, apprenticeship, support, jobs for young 'Beurs', and the rejection she, but young men and women, experiences on a day to day basis- even today as she walked in Rouen as part of the demonstration- when she was stared at for wearing a colourful scarf and felt so intimidated- by the many NF supporters there.

Last edited by Odile; 11.01.2015 at 16:11.
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  #743  
Old 11.01.2015, 15:42
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Yeah yeah, them.
Yes, them.

I'd take this whole "je suis Charlie" business a bit more seriously if it actually meant stepping up and standing in the way of the bullets too.

But it doesn't. By and large it involves a new avatar on social media, a few posts on a message board, maybe attending a candlelit protest on a well-policed city square.

Everybody's very keen on this "Free Speech" lark, as long as it's somebody else that's taking all the risks.
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  #744  
Old 11.01.2015, 15:45
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Yes, them.

I'd take this whole "je suis Charlie" business a bit more seriously if it actually meant stepping up and standing in the way of the bullets too.

But it doesn't. By and large it involves a new avatar on social media, a few posts on a message board, maybe attending a candlelit protest on a well-policed city square.

Everybody's very keen on this "Free Speech" lark, as long as it's somebody else that's taking all the risks.
German newspaper firebombed after reprinting Charlie Hebdo cartoons:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-9970536.html

Most people aren't newspaper editors though so you're right, the risks for most people are minimal.
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Old 11.01.2015, 15:50
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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No offence Pancakes, but I'm not going to spend time and energy debating it with you on that level. Feel free to do you own research or find someone else to help you to muddle your way through the differences between calling someone a racial slur to their face, and expressing critical opinions through public media.
I'm willing to bet that your "average" Muslim would be far less offended by being called a racial slur than to have mocked that which they hold sacred.

I'm sure that if I were French and/or had previously been a fan of this magazine, I may feel differently about this whole thing, but I am neither. And maybe I've just sat through a few too many Islamic art and philos. of religion courses to see it the way most do here.

Anyways.... deal. I'm going to get out my paints and "get my zen on" before I let this thread get me overheated and ruin my day.
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  #746  
Old 11.01.2015, 15:50
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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German newspaper firebombed after reprinting Charlie Hebdo cartoons:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-9970536.html

Most people aren't newspaper editors though so you're right, the risks for most people are minimal.
it depends. my husband has been threatened by simply reporting factual news in the past. mind you, it's his work, but it wasn't certainly satire or mocking, simply reporting on current events that hit a very personal note for some. this is why i to say that limiting speech to certain forms is dangerous. when you begin to limit what can be said due to fear of repercussion, you often find that any information is offensive to some.
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  #747  
Old 11.01.2015, 15:55
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Everybody's very keen on this "Free Speech" lark, as long as it's somebody else that's taking all the risks.
I once stood up in a room of about four hundred Muslim men and gave them some home truths about their behaviour towards women.

It seemed to be the right thing to do at the time due to the circumstances.

(Although I think I got away with it as I spoke in English and most of them only understood Urdu).
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  #748  
Old 11.01.2015, 16:43
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

I don't get all the fuss at the moment. If these twonks hadn't felt that this magazine was a soft target they would have attacked somewhere else. Thats the problem, everyone is suggesting this is an attack on the freedom of speech, these nut cases were open to attack any target that they felt were against their ideologies. I am sure they would have also liked to attack a military target, but that would have been harder to achieve.

And does anyone believe that the protest will make the blindest bit of difference to somebody who has a fanatical ideology? All this action will do is make the fanatics happy that they achieved their goal, to unsettle Europe and the West and widen the gulf between the West and Islam.
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  #749  
Old 11.01.2015, 16:44
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings



OK, OK, send back the drones and daisycutters - at least they were less sanctimonious!
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  #750  
Old 11.01.2015, 16:45
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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No, that is direct racism, and not covered under freedom of speech laws. Any more pearls of wis-dim?
those statements would most certainly be protected as free speech under US law, so long as they were not accompanied by the commission of a crime, e.g. so long as the person uttering the word did not assault the other person. there is no concept of "hate speech" under US law, and all speech is protected with very limited exceptions for speech solely intended to imminently incite violence.

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I'd take this whole "je suis Charlie" business a bit more seriously if it actually meant stepping up and standing in the way of the bullets too.
the suggestion that somehow a person has to be willing to risk physical violence in order for their desire to protect their human rights to be meaningful or relevant is an utter indictment of modern society, rather than an indictment of the individual seeking to protect their human rights.
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  #751  
Old 11.01.2015, 18:42
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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They're also quite free to move to another country which follows their view of the world better if they can't learn to abide by the rules of the country they've adopted.
They could also attempt to change the rules by peaceful means which possibly would benefit many people and be a more positive approach than simply leaving.

Many rules are out of date or unnecessary or could be improved. You only have to study the many referendums here to recognise that people see room for improving existing rules.

More difficult to do in countries like France who do not have a similar referendum approach.
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  #752  
Old 11.01.2015, 19:16
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This is interesting: http://stopwar.org.uk/news/what-is-m...-hebdo-murders

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I once stood up in a room of about four hundred Muslim men and gave them some home truths about their behaviour towards women.

It seemed to be the right thing to do at the time due to the circumstances.

(Although I think I got away with it as I spoke in English and most of them only understood Urdu).
This is interesting. What was the context? Were they all known misogynists?

This exchange is fascinating especially about the centre liberal vacuum allowing Islamists and racists to take centre stage:

http://youtu.be/m7xwhVQmGq0

Last edited by 3Wishes; 11.01.2015 at 21:09. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #753  
Old 11.01.2015, 19:34
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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This is interesting. What was the context? Were they all known misogynists?
No, I was with a conservatively dressed western woman at the cinema. We were waiting in the foyer and a group of about twenty men saw her and started masturbating under their shalwal kameezes whilst starring at her.
Anyway, during the film, I noticed a couple of these men swapping places with others to move closer to her. One got in the seat behind her and tried to grope her.
After my indignation, he fled the cinema. An old man came up to me and said he had called the Police so I really thought I was in trouble but it was so they could apprehend this man an he said he was sorry that people had behaved in that way.

Perhaps we shouldn't have gone to the cinema but I didn't see any signs saying women weren't allowed in.
And isn't hindsight a wonderful thing.

Oh, and this was in Lahore.

So, were they misogynists? No, of course not. Sex starved? Probably.

Apart from a couple of other incidences, the Pakistani people were lovely.
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Old 11.01.2015, 20:18
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

RWB condemns presence of “predators” in Paris march, calls for solidarity with “all Charlies”

11 January 2015
Reporters Without Borders welcomes the participation of many foreign leaders in today’s march in Paris in homage to the victims of last week’s terror attacks and in defence of the French republic’s values, but is outraged by the presence of officials from countries that restrict freedom of information.

On what grounds are representatives of regimes that are predators of press freedom coming to Paris to pay tribute to Charlie Hebdo, a publication that has always defended the most radical concept of freedom of expression?

Reporters Without Borders is appalled by the presence of leaders from countries where journalists and bloggers are systematically persecuted such as Egypt (which is ranked 159th out of 180 countries in RWB’s press freedom index), Russia (148th), Turkey (154th) and United Arab Emirates (118th).

“We must demonstrate our solidarity with Charlie Hebdo without forgetting all the world’s other Charlies,” Reporters Without Borders secretary-general Christophe Deloire said.

“It would be unacceptable if representatives of countries that silence journalists were to take advantage of the current outpouring of emotion to try to improve their international image and then continue their repressive policies when they return home. We must not let predators of press freedom spit on the graves of Charlie Hebdo.”

The authorities have announced the presence of Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, Egyptian foreign minister Sameh Shoukry, Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, Algerian foreign minister Ramtane Lamamra, UAE foreign minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan and Gabonese President Ali Bongo.

Source
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  #755  
Old 11.01.2015, 20:35
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About " the occupation of Saudi soil by US troops", they are invited guests who are normally treated with respect by Arabs.
This only quotes three of the grounds from the Bin Laden's letter claiming to justify 9/11. It was a long rambling letter and one ground given was US support for Russian oppression of the Chechens.

It is also not true that the media coverage does not include the two murdered Muslims and the Muslim hero.

Overall a rubbish article!

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About " the occupation of Saudi soil by US troops", they are invited guests who are normally treated with respect by Arabs.
This only quotes three of the grounds from the Bin Laden's letter claiming to justify 9/11. It was a long rambling letter and one ground given was US support for Russian oppression of the Chechens.

It is also not true that the media coverage does not include the two murdered Muslims and the Muslim hero.

Overall a rubbish article!
The rubbish article also states the people marching are responsible for drone attacks in the ME. The author was clearly too lazy to check the attenders!

The authorities have announced the presence of Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, Egyptian foreign minister Sameh Shoukry, Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, Algerian foreign minister Ramtane Lamamra, UAE foreign minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan and Gabonese President Ali Bongo.

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Old 11.01.2015, 20:44
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The authorities have announced the presence of Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, Egyptian foreign minister Sameh Shoukry, Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, Algerian foreign minister Ramtane Lamamra, UAE foreign minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan and Gabonese President Ali Bongo.
They weren't all there. Fidel Castro was ill and Kim Jong Un had to visit a kitchen chair factory.
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Old 11.01.2015, 20:48
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

the article raises some interesting points, but I think it is grossly unfair and completely dishonest to characterize terrorist activities as a "war on western involvement". I mean, let's be perfectly honest, there is a real likelihood that much of the modern problem would never had started had the Arabs not lost the civil war of 1948 and subsequently lost the Six Day War. no doubt Israel (and much of the west) has not acquitted itself flawlessly in the last 70 years with respect to "the Palestinian situation", but losing wars sucks and the Palestinians have lost more than one during that time period.
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Old 11.01.2015, 21:04
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The authorities have announced the presence of Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, Egyptian foreign minister Sameh Shoukry, Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, Algerian foreign minister Ramtane Lamamra, UAE foreign minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan and Gabonese President Ali Bongo.
Well, I've looked at the footage again and again and I can't see any sign of this fellow!

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Old 11.01.2015, 21:13
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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They weren't all there. Fidel Castro was ill and Kim Jong Un had to visit a kitchen chair factory.




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Old 11.01.2015, 21:19
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Don't know if this has already been posted, but in case anyone is interested:

Responses to the massacre in Arabic and Iranian press.
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