France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks] - Page 41

farmadoc · #**801** 12.01.2015, 00:34

	Quote:
	Yes, yes and yes. Sorry, were you hoping for the party line from me? You're new here, aren't you?

not hoping for anything, just a little incredulous.

You've got a dog. The sound of the dog barking offends my sensibilities. I warn you. And then again and again. Plently of opportunity to silence your dog. I tell you: silence your dog or I'll shoot you in the head.

If I then shoot you in the head, do you take some responsibility for not silencing the dog which offends me?

#**802** 12.01.2015, 00:34

Organised religion did a pretty good job at founding universities, hospitals and orphanages, though.

#**803** 12.01.2015, 00:35

	Quote:	farmadoc
	not hoping for anything, just a little incredulous. You've got a dog. The sound of the dog barking offends my sensibilities. I warn you. And then again and again. Plently of opportunity to silence your dog. I tell you: silence your dog or I'll shoot you in the head. If I then shoot you in the head, do you take some responsibility for not silencing the dog which offends me?

I haven't got a dog. Are you drunk?

greenmount · #**804** 12.01.2015, 00:35

	Quote:	amaraya
	i think you misunderstand. in fact it doesn't have to be france and it doesn't have to be these particular men, exactly- i hate to say it but we've seen it and we'll see it again with people who grew up in the us, the uk or where ever else. this time it happens to be france but there are other places ripe for this, i'm sure. i think, in fact, that it isn't religion pushing these men to do this. religion they weren't brought up in and religion they weren't following when committing these murders- i tend to think people that fall for any kind of radicalism are searching for something.and here everyone is so obsessed about the religion, the tie to it and the doctrine of it- but certainly these men would've ended up thugs and killers under any guise of course they have free will, but a conscience- there are plenty of people without that. my point is that plenty of boys/men, and as we see women too, fall for this belief that it is their mission, their purpose or their destiny or at least that they have nothing to lose and something to gain. it's a dangerous one and now that others have seen that these men did just that- there will, i fear, be plenty prepared to do the same.

No, I didn't misunderstand. I replied to this comment, and I think I was quite spot on.

	Quote:
	think actually the big problem here is that these men- french men, two of whom were raised, much of their childhood, in french institutions with such little hope, support and preparation for the future that they fall so easily into a regime that can convince them to murder innocent people, including fellow muslims (if this is religiously motivated) and that their own lives have such little value as well as the lives of others. the fact that these men, raised in france and not before religious, can be so disillusioned by their own propects as to go this far and fall for something so evil- is frightening and tragic and a far more serious and real problem.

	Quote:	greenmount
	They grew up in France, for goodness' sake, not in Sudan. No hope? Really? (access to a home, clothes, food, school, social assistance, etc etc etc etc....) Everyone has free will and a conscience, Amaraya. Even I personally felt really sorry for them, I can't blame the French society - most probably the did whatever they could for these "kids". Such an absurd situation.

Though I agree not everyone has a conscience, even though they're supposed to.

Der_Spieler · #**805** 12.01.2015, 00:36

	Quote:	crazygringo
	I hate this kind of moral relativism, which is solely intended to distract from the true subject at hand. I don't know about Der Spieler, but the short answer is yes, I do blame organized Christianity for the Holocaust. in fact, the Holocaust is just the tip of the iceberg with respect to the unimaginable atrocities committed in the name of organized Christianity over the course of the last 2,000 years. does this make the current state of organized Islam better? faith is a wonderful and sacred thing, and people should remain free to choose whichever faith they desire. organized religion is a despicable and utterly damnable tool of oppression, hatred and totalitarianism.

Speaking of Christianity, between the Fall of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the Renaissance, for roughly 1000 years (300-1300), the economic growth for these 1000 years was less than 5%. Basically, absolutely nothing happened because Christianity prevented any progress.
The same is happening now in the Middle East.
However, what I don`t get is the following. Since Muslims came to the West, they obviously had a good reason to do so, obviously there was something they didnt like there. Well, since they are here, why are they trying to implement the same society over here ? They want to take advantage of the economic opportunities, but they also want to ban our freedom of speech and expression, not realizing that this freedom is precisely the very reason that we have these economic advantages that they do not have. I wonder, if they implement Sharia here, where will they escape to ?

China maybe ?

Der_Spieler · #**806** 12.01.2015, 00:38

	Quote:
	Organised religion did a pretty good job at founding universities, hospitals and orphanages, though.

I can argue that if organized religion did not exist, the free market forces would of founded these institutions.
Its like my grandfather who grew up in communism praising communists for building hospitals, schools and highways.

amaraya · #**807** 12.01.2015, 00:45

	Quote:	greenmount
	No, I didn't misunderstand. I replied to this comment, and I think I was quite spot on. Though I agree not everyone has a conscience, even though they're supposed to.

i do like to see things from all sides- instead of looking for an easy answer when there isn't just one and it's not easy. so, if you think you got then you surely have

greenmount · #**808** 12.01.2015, 00:46

	Quote:
	Organised religion did a pretty good job at founding universities, hospitals and orphanages, though.

Yeah, but heard that anyone who attended a Catholic school (for instance) hated religion with a passion.

greenmount · #**809** 12.01.2015, 00:49

	Quote:	amaraya
	i do like to see things from all sides- instead of looking for an easy answer when there isn't just one and it's not easy. so, if you think you got then you surely have

Not sure why you think I'm looking for an easy answer, but if it fits your projections, it's fine with me. I only tried to argue your opinion that the two brothers had little hope.
Can you accept I have a different view re. your assumption? Or do you need to be condescending?

farmadoc · #**810** 12.01.2015, 00:54

	Quote:
	Organised religion did a pretty good job at founding universities, hospitals and orphanages, though.

nah, that was people. And they did it to hold onto power. Obviously.

marton · #**811** 12.01.2015, 01:00

	Quote:	marton
	Basically the Third Commandment that both Christians and Muslims "borrowed" from the Jews. Of the three Abrahamic religions only Islam see this as a something to kill about; I believe this was a relatively recent idea in Islam - only in the last couple of hundred years? I meant defining this as a killing matter. At one time paintings of Mohammed were quite common!

More on the topic "At one time paintings of Mohammed were quite common!";
here

Der_Spieler · #**812** 12.01.2015, 01:13

	Quote:	marton
	More on the topic "At one time paintings of Mohammed were quite common!"; here

I love it how they describe the life ot the Prophet in the end of the article, without mentioning neither a single person he has killsed nor the 8-year old girl he married. Both events are described in detail in the Quran. This type of liberal journalists are insulting to Charlie Ebdo`s sacrifice.

greenmount · #**813** 12.01.2015, 01:13

	Quote:	Pancakes
	We are all "entitled" to be offended by something. What we are not entitled to is a violent reaction in opposition. Similarly, we are all (for the most part), entitled to offend something. I only wish that more people weren't so easily willing to. How can you logically expect (some) Muslims to not be offended when that which they hold most sacred is attacked? Regardless of whether or not we judge their religion to be "right" or "wrong," it is what it is... and I don't know how anyone can expect tensions between the West and the Muslim world to improve if we can't at least respect their right to follow whatever religion they choose, particularly when we are not in a state in which that religion is being forced upon us. I think the biggest threat to humanity is its own ego.

Muslims are allowed to follow their religion all over the Western world and beyond of it, actually. If you want to argue that you better bring on some info we don't know about it.

Making fun of their religion in a satire magazine, in a democratic and mature country - i.e. France, does not equal they are not allowed to follow their religion. In fact, for everyone who visited France at least, that's such a ridiculous idea.

Der_Spieler · #**814** 12.01.2015, 01:15

	Quote:	greenmount
	Muslims are allowed to follow their religion all over the Western world and beyond of it, actually. If you want to argue that you better bring on some info we don't know about it.

And if following their religion means (and it does) killing non-believers, do you still think it should be allowed ?

greenmount · #**815** 12.01.2015, 01:27

	Quote:	Der_Spieler
	And if following their religion means (and it does) killing non-believers, do you still think it should be allowed ?

If you refer to religious extremism and what'd to be done with this, I have no answer.

cannut · #**816** 12.01.2015, 01:55

	Quote:	farmadoc
	not hoping for anything, just a little incredulous. You've got a dog. The sound of the dog barking offends my sensibilities. I warn you. And then again and again. Plently of opportunity to silence your dog. I tell you: silence your dog or I'll shoot you in the head. If I then shoot you in the head, do you take some responsibility for not silencing the dog which offends me?

This one is a funny one. I am dead and have to take responsibilities . There is a afterlife after all

farmadoc · #**817** 12.01.2015, 01:55

	Quote:
	I haven't got a dog. Are you drunk?

it's an anola-jelly

amaraya · #**818** 12.01.2015, 02:14

	Quote:	greenmount
	Not sure why you think I'm looking for an easy answer, but if it fits your projections, it's fine with me. I only tried to argue your opinion that the two brothers had little hope. Can you accept I have a different view re. your assumption? Or do you need to be condescending?

condescending? no. projecting? no. but i think that analyzing the situation for people in similar situations can possibly help to avoid more tragedies such as this. idle hands are the devils workshop and all that...

cannut · #**819** 12.01.2015, 03:36

	Quote:	amaraya
	condescending? no. projecting? no. but i think that analyzing the situation for people in similar situations can possibly help to avoid more tragedies such as this. idle hands are the devils workshop and all that...

Which one http://www.news.com.au/world/africa/...-1227180726580

Wollishofener · #**820** 12.01.2015, 05:02

	Quote:	Der_Spieler
	Speaking of Christianity, between the Fall of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the Renaissance, for roughly 1000 years (300-1300), the economic growth for these 1000 years was less than 5%. Basically, absolutely nothing happened because Christianity prevented any progress. The same is happening now in the Middle East. However, what I don`t get is the following. Since Muslims came to the West, they obviously had a good reason to do so, obviously there was something they didnt like there. Well, since they are here, why are they trying to implement the same society over here ? They want to take advantage of the economic opportunities, but they also want to ban our freedom of speech and expression, not realizing that this freedom is precisely the very reason that we have these economic advantages that they do not have. I wonder, if they implement Sharia here, where will they escape to ? China maybe ?

THEY are not trying to implement such things. A small 5% minority may do so, and European media chaps are fascinated

THEY do NOT want to ban the freedom of speech. Freedom of speech and media is the reason why places like Lebanon are so popular in the Middle East. Countries like Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan and Dubai have a decent freedom of the media in place