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  #841  
Old 12.01.2015, 10:21
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Yep. So much for the "freedom of speech..."
They expressed a point of view we're not forced to agree with. In fact, I personally think it's a good thing that these leaders participated.
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  #842  
Old 12.01.2015, 10:34
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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When muslims are told that the problem lies within their own religion, they might start reforming it and changing it for the better. While Cameron and Obama insist that Islam exemplifies the most peaceful fairy tail in the world, what incentives would ordinary Muslims have to change their religion, as it is already perfect ?
Did you read the link I put earlier about Muslims, Muslim communities and leaders, Imams' horror at the events in Paris and elsewhere. Explaining what Jihad truly means and putting words in context- and 100% declaring the young men who committed those crimes and others in the name of Jihad are totally deluded and distorting the true meaning of the Koran.

Most religions, and indeed political writings and philosophies can be totally distorted, out of context, by the wrong people and the wrong reasons. Thes young men had not been brought up in a Muslim family anyhow- and it is possible that they never ever studied the Koran, but just had bits stuffed in their heads out of context.

Again- even if we agree with your statements about Islam- what do you propose to do about it- say in France? Stop your (racist) rhetoric- and give me your solutions, you way forward. HOW WOULD YOU GO ABOUT IT?

Here is the link again- since then of course, there have been 1000s more from all over the world- and guess what, Fox News still has not found them!








46 examples of Muslim outrage about Paris shooting that Fox News can’t seem to find
Every time an extremist who is Muslim commits an act of terrorism, people ask where the moderate Muslim voices condemning violence are. (Interestingly, as a Jew, I don’t usually get...
rawstory.com

Last edited by Odile; 12.01.2015 at 10:44.
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  #843  
Old 12.01.2015, 10:46
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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yes, I think that being a Muslim or Christian is a "preference", and entirely the result of free will. to think anything else would, in my opinion, dishonor what separates man from ape.
Free choice might be true of Christianity, but there is no opting out of Islam, short of going on the run or facing the consequences of apostasy - beheading in Sharia governed societies.
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Old 12.01.2015, 10:49
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Organised religion did a pretty good job at founding universities, hospitals and orphanages, though.
and in much of the territory it controls, IS provides basic utilities, medical care, schools, etc., as well.

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  #845  
Old 12.01.2015, 10:52
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Absolutely, but now is not the time to discuss. French 'Beur' (arabs) from ex-colonies from North Africa, often 2nd, 3rd generations, born in France- are too often treated like 3rd class citizens in France- unable to access good education, apprenticeships, jobs, accommodation apart from high-rise in limited areas, loans, etc, and discriminated in so many other ways too. And young beurs constantly harrassed by the police.

Very different to the great tolerance shown in the UK.
Agincourt and all that?

Did we ever have grown Islamic terrorists in the UK, or is this purely a French thing?
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  #846  
Old 12.01.2015, 10:53
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Free choice might be true of Christianity, but there is no opting out of Islam, short of going on the run or facing the consequences of apostasy - beheading in Sharia governed societies.
You could just not practice your religion. Definitely easier in some countries than others and easier if you are male.*
It's not as it's tattooed on your forehead or micro-chipped is it?

*more females get murdered by their families for bringing dishonour upon them but it seems like double-standards to me as gang-rape of young girls seems pretty dishonourable too.
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  #847  
Old 12.01.2015, 10:54
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Free choice might be true of Christianity, but there is no opting out of Islam, short of going on the run or facing the consequences of apostasy - beheading in Sharia governed societies.
Glass Houses.. Stones... Phos

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Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."
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  #848  
Old 12.01.2015, 10:56
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Glass Houses.. Stones... Phos
When was the last time a Christian or a Jew was executed for leaving their faith? The last time a Muslim was executed for apostasy was probably last week, if not more recent.
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  #849  
Old 12.01.2015, 10:59
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon you."
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  #850  
Old 12.01.2015, 10:59
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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When was the last time a Christian or a Jew was executed for leaving their faith? The last time a Muslim was executed for apostasy was probably last week, if not more recent.
Absolutely.

It is for the followers of a religion to interpret their scriptures and decide what different stuff means and which bits apply and which don't (and why). One quote out of context means zilch.
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  #851  
Old 12.01.2015, 11:02
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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You could just not practice your religion. Definitely easier in some countries than others and easier if you are male.*
It's not as it's tattooed on your forehead or micro-chipped is it?
exactly, this is what most people do
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  #852  
Old 12.01.2015, 11:09
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Glass Houses.. Stones... Phos
The difference being that no rational Christian has acted on those passages for at least several hundred years.
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  #853  
Old 12.01.2015, 11:16
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The difference being that no rational Christian has acted on those passages for at least several hundred years.

and no rational muslim has either, these guys are nutters, brain washed by nutters who don't have the balls to do there own dirty work, and I'd wager don't believe a word of what they are saying to there drones anyway.
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  #854  
Old 12.01.2015, 11:17
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The difference being that no rational Christian has acted on those passages for at least several hundred years.
Neither has any rational Muslim acted on the similar passages in the Koran.

All totalitarian ideologies, be it fascism, stalinism, religious fundamentalism, don't have reason behind it. But what they have in common are twisted and dare I say, evil, axioms. If you start from these axioms, and lock away reason, you can use them to "justify" almost any extreme act.

Many commenters then confuse this twisted logic with the belief that this represents the actual reasoning of hundred of millions of people.
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  #855  
Old 12.01.2015, 11:32
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The last time a Muslim was executed for apostasy was probably last week, if not more recent.
Please do post some of these representative cases, because I think you're being a tad sensationalist.

P.S Actual government executed sentences, not ISIS nutters
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  #856  
Old 12.01.2015, 11:42
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Please do post some of these representative cases, because I think you're being a tad sensationalist.

P.S Actual government executed sentences, not ISIS nutters
Oh my gosh, all these.... links on this page:
What does the Religion of Peace Teach About... Apostasy

Ismaili 'Apostate' Beheaded by the Caliphate...
Professor Hacked to Death After Being Declared Apostate...
Muslims Open Fire on Christian Convert...
Young Girl Killed for Helping 'Apostate' Cousin...
Egypt Sentences Christian Convert to Five Years in Prison...
Pregnant Woman Sentenced to Death for Choosing Christianity...
17-Year-Old Girl Beaten to Death by Father for Becoming Christian...
Man Stabbed in Refugee Center for Leaving Islam...
Family Tries to Poison Apostate...
Teen Hacked to Death in Church for Changing Faith...
Two Christians Beheaded in Front of Children...
Woman Hacked to Death in Church for Leaving Islam...
Imam Converts to Christianity - Father Tries to Stab Him...
Man Leaves Islam - Home Burned Down by Relatives...
Afghan Parliament Member Calls for Execution of Christian Converts...
Woman Kidnapped, Sexually Abused for Becoming Christian...
Young Girl Shaved and Beaten for Converting to Christianity...
15-Year-Old Boy Executed for Denying Belief in God...
Ex-Muslim Couple Imprisoned for Converting to Christianity...
Saudis Lash and Jail Man Accused of Helping Woman Convert...
Morocco's Highest Islamic Body Demands Death of Anyone Rejecting Islamic Faith...
Christian Widow and Mother of 5 Hunted Down and Murdered for Leaving Islam...
Iran Tells Imprisoned Pastor the Torture Will End When He Renounces Faith...
Wife Kicked Out of Home for Becoming Christian...
Two Christian Converts Murdered by Islamists...
Christian Convert Jailed and Tortured for Leaving Islam...
Imprisoned Pastor's Health Worsens as Beatings Intensify...
Woman's Entire Family Threatened with Death for Her Leaving Islam...
Prominent Muslim-American Group Backs Death Penalty for Leaving Islam...
Ex-Muslim Turned Pastor Gunned Down...
Teacher, Father of Four Shot to Death...
Christian Convert Denied Right to See His Children...
Egypt Imprisons Entire Family of Christian Converts...
Girl's Face Burned by Parents for Embracing Christianity...
Islamists Behead Convert to Christianity...
Ex-Muslim and Family Denied Fresh Water...
al-Shabaab Shoots 3 Christian Converts in Somalia...
Teenage Girl Gets Two Years in Prison after Leaving Islam...
Apostate Preacher Murdered in His Own Home...
Criminal Past Invented to Punish Christian Convert...
Convert Released from Solitary Confinement After 105 Days...
Five Christian Converts 'Disappear' in Iranian Prison System...
Atheist Sentenced to Three Years for Denying God's Existence...
Muslims Offer Prayers as They Cut Man's Throat for Embracing Christianity...
Apostate's Brother Urges Sudan to Kill Her...
Death Sentence Fatwa Placed on Head of 'Apostate' Rapper...
Church Pastor Abducted for Baptizing Muslim Girl...
Apostates Jailed, Families Mocked...
Christian Converts Describe Torture by Muslim Fundamentalists...
Ex-Imam and Wife Nearly Beaten to Death for Converting to Christianity
Girl Severely Beaten, Families Threatened for Showing Interest in Jesus
Iran: No College for Ex-Muslims
Two Converts to Christianity Stabbed in Norway
Uganda Girl Learning to Walk after Brutal Torture for Leaving Islam
Egyptian Cleric Says to Behead Apostates
Convert Beheaded for Leaving Islam
Iran Jails Christian Woman for Two Years over Leaving Islam
Muslim Father Arrested to Lure Christian Sons Back to Fate
Zanzibar Christian Suffers in Jail after Incarceration and Torture for Apostasy
Christian Woman Faints While Being Publicly Flogged for Leaving Islam
Secularist Endures 'Unbearable' Torture, Prepares for Execution
Apostate Pastor Blinded with Acid in Uganda
Children Murdered to Punish Ex-Muslim for Embracing Christianity
Christian Convert Sentenced to 6 Years in Prison following Baptism
Iran Orders Ex-Muslim Pastors to Serve Prison Sentences
Kenyan Convert Stripped and Beaten with Iron Rods at Kenyan Church
Christian Convert Tied Up and Stomped On
Five Afghan Christian Converts Martyred...
Converts from Islam Detained and Beaten
Christian Convert Survives Brutal Stabbing in "Moderate" Morocco
Converts to Christianity Ordered to 'Repent' or Face 'Social Boycott'
Schoolteacher Gunned Down After Converting to Ahmadi Faith
Man Beheaded for Leaving Islam and Embracing Christianity...
Christian Girl Tortured and Killed for Leaving Islam...
Christian Convert Flees after Severe Beating by Family...
Swedish Imam Calls on Muslims to Kill Converts...
25 Ex-Muslims Arrested in Iran...
Morocco Gives Ex-Muslim 15 Years in Jail for 'Proselytizing'...
14-Year-Old 'Apostate' Girl Unable to Walk after Torture...
Court Orders Apostate to 'Repent His Christian Faith' or Die...
Christian Released after 9 Months in prison for Leaving Islam
New Ground Zero Imam Says Apostates Should be Jailed...
Muslim Murdered for Intention to Convert to Hinduism...
Palestinian Couple Declared Apostates, Forcibly Divorced...
Time Running Out for Apostate Pastor Facing Execution...
Muslim-American Leaders Challenged to Reject Killing Apostates
Palestinian Authority Labels Ahmadis 'Apostates'...
Suicide Bombers Close in on 'Apostate' Pakistan Ahmadi Community...
'Blessings' Promised to Those who Kill Ahmadiya 'Apostates'
'Apostate' Ahmadiyahs Brutally Murdered by 'Allah Akbar' Mob
Man in Britain Beaten with Plank for Leaving Islam...
Christian Couple Stabbed in Home for Leaving Islam...
Iranian Christian Beaten to Death by Relative
21-Year-Old Christian Executed for Leaving Islam...
Afghan Released after 9 Months in prison for Leaving Islam...
Christian Father of Ten Executed in Front of Home
Christian Faces Death Penalty for Leaving Islam...
Father of 6 Jailed and Beaten for Leaving Islam...
Tortured Aid Worker Faces Execution for Becoming Christian...
63-Year-Old Convert & Son Beaten for Leaving Islam...
Imprisoned Pastor Faces Death Penalty for Leaving Islam...
Ethiopian Stabbed for Leaving Islam...
Son Confesses to Killing Father for Leaving Islam...
17-Year-Old Girl Beaten by Family, in Shackles for Leaving Islam...
15-Year-Old Girl Attacked with Acid for Leaving Islam...
Asylum Seekers in Norway Scald Christian Convert with Boiling Water...
Christian Convert Flees Torture in Bangladesh...
Christian Convert Beaten to Death...
False Cattle Theft Charge Used to Stop Christian Convert...
Egyptian Muslims Attempt to Behead Christian Convert...
Afghanistan Detains 20 Christian Converts amid Call for Death...
Torture Fears for Humanitarian Worker Charged with Apostasy...
Schoolchildren Forced to Watch Execution of Christian Convert...
Pastor to Hang for Apostasy...
Islamic Scholars Mull Putting Ex-Muslims to Death...
Pastors Warned to Return to Islam or Risk Murder...
Australian Islamists Vow to Murder Ex-Muslims...
Cleric: Ex-Muslims Should be Reasoned With - Then Killed...
Egypt Jails Christian Convert Accused of Distributing Bibles...
Elderly Woman Burned to Death for Converting Family from Islam...
Christian Convert Executed by Somali Islamists...
Malaysia: Whipping, Prison and Fines for Anyone Trying to Convert Muslims...
Bangladeshi Christian Convert Threatened with Death...
Ethiopian Christian Convert Languishes in Jail over Bibles...
Bibles Burned, Christian Converts Threatened with Same Fate...
Family Ordered to 'Sacrifice' Christian Convert Son...
Judge Tells Christian Convert of His Desire to Kill Her...
Police Round Up Christian Converts in Iran...
Comoros Imam who Converts to Christianity is Forced into Hiding
Elderly Christian Converts Driven from Home...
Police Rape and Torture Christian Convert - Promise to Release Her if She Will Return to Islam...
Christian Converts Hunted Down and Beaten in Comoros...
Son of Murdered Christian Convert Also Faces Death...
Iran's Parliament Votes to Kill Christian Converts...
Christian Convert Shot to Death by Devout Muslims...
Mob Pelts Christian Converts with Rocks...
Innocent Man Slain After Cleric Declares Ahmadis to be Wajibul Qatl...
'Moderate' Malaysia Sends Christian Converts to Re-Education Camps...
Jordan Annuls Marriage of Christian Convert...
Christian Convert & Wife Beaten, Flee to Save Children...
New Zealand Christian Convert Goes Underground to Stay Alive...
Christian Convert Needs Police Protection - in the UK!...
Genital-Shocking Egyptian Police Detain Christian Convert...
Ethiopian Islamists Stab Christian Convert's Son...
Christian Convert (Father of 4) Murdered by Islamists...
Christian Convert Murdered by Islamic Radicals...
16-Year-Old Christian Convert has Muslim Man Forced on Her...
Imam Calls for His Own Son's Murder for Leaving Islam...
Somali Christian Shot to Death for Leaving Islam...
Father of Two Shot to Death for Leaving Islam...
Palestinian Terrorists Butcher and Cut Christian Man into Four Pieces...
Iran Holds Women in Notorious Prison for Leaving Islam...
Christian Woman Divorced and Beaten for Leaving Islam...
Libya Urged to Stop Torturing Christians for Leaving Islam...
Graphic Video Posted of Man Beheaded for Leaving Islam...
Christian Beheaded for Leaving Islam...
Saudi Cuts Out Daughter's Tongue and Burn Her Alive for Leaving Islam...
Prominent Canada Threatens to Kill Daughter for Leaving Islam...
Yemen Arrests Nine for Leaving Islam...
Maldives Cleric Vows to Kill Anyone Leaving Islam...
Four Christians Sent to Jail for Leaving Islam...
Elderly Woman Burned to Death for Leaving Islam...
Malaysia Officially Bars Muslims from Leaving Islam...
Young Christian Murdered after Leaving Islam...
Apostate Woman's Fingernails Torn Out by Family...
Apostate Spat on in the UK, Threatened with Death...
Poll: 4 in 5 Pakistanis Support Stoning Adulterers, Apostates...
Iraqi Mujahideen Post Video of 'Apostate' Beheading...
Harvard Chaplain Defends Killing Apostates...
Executed Somali Christian was Accused of Apostasy...
Man Under House Arrest over Son's Apostasy...
(Canada) Mother Threatens to Kill Apostate Son...
Apostasy: Iran to Enforce Death Penalty Worldwide?...
Apostates Suffer Religious Persecution in Britain...
UK Clerics Refuse to Denounce Killing Apostates...
Somali Christian Casually Executed for Apostasy...
Dutch Muslims Assault Apostate...
Non-Muslims Horrified by Details of Apostate Family's Murder...
Apostate and Christian Father of 7 Shot Dead in Ethiopia..
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:46
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Please do post some of these representative cases, because I think you're being a tad sensationalist.

P.S Actual government executed sentences, not ISIS nutters
Not executed, just flogged and given 10 years for insulting Islam in Saudi.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...es-raif-badawi
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:52
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Neither has any rational Muslim acted on the similar passages in the Koran.

All totalitarian ideologies, be it fascism, stalinism, religious fundamentalism, don't have reason behind it. But what they have in common are twisted and dare I say, evil, axioms. If you start from these axioms, and lock away reason, you can use them to "justify" almost any extreme act.

Many commenters then confuse this twisted logic with the belief that this represents the actual reasoning of hundred of millions of people.
All this bollocks about rational Muslims. How can you explain why there are so many terrorists, if they're all nutters? In many different countries all over the world and living under different circumstances. There is no evidence to support higher levels of psychological illness among terrorists. Nor any evidence to support a link between poverty and personal situation to likelihood to commit acts of terrorism. The ONLY thing that they have in common is their religion.
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:54
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Oh my gosh, all these.... links on this page:
What does the Religion of Peace Teach About... Apostasy
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Access to this website is denied

Category Blocked
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/qu...2-apostasy.htm
Access to this website is denied because it is listed in the category
Hate & Intolerance, Religion
which is blocked according to company policy.
IT Service Desk
Oh well, perhaps you could try Human Rights Watch or some other website not blocked by my company's Hate filter. Again, I am talking about an official State imposed death penalty being executed for the crime of apostasy, not extrajudicial, drive-by, terrorist takfiri group etc.. killings.

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Not executed, just flogged and given 10 years for insulting Islam in Saudi.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...es-raif-badawi
His true crime is criticising the Western-backed government of Saudi Arabia and their Clerical Stooges.
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:58
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Oh well, perhaps you could try Human Rights Watch or some other website not blocked by my company's Hate filter. Again, I am talking about an official State imposed death penalty being executed for the crime of apostasy, not extrajudicial, drive-by, terrorist takfiri group etc.. killings.
Here's Iran. I could find more, if you really and truly need it for any particular point. Suffice to say it does occur regularly today.
http://www.iranhrdc.org/english/publ...c-of-iran.html

Sorry, I just can't take on your gopher work at the moment. Are you in "doubt" these occur regularly?
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