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  #861  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:05
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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All this bollocks about rational Muslims. How can you explain why there are so many terrorists, if they're all nutters? In many different countries all over the world and living under different circumstances. There is no evidence to support higher levels of psychological illness among terrorists. Nor any evidence to support a link between poverty and personal situation to likelihood to commit acts of terrorism. The ONLY thing that they have in common is their religion.
this is a typically vile post from you. I'm glad you've been so easily smoked out.

there are 1.8bn Muslims in the world and you're putting them all in the same boat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Demographics
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Old 12.01.2015, 13:05
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Please do post some of these representative cases, because I think you're being a tad sensationalist.

P.S Actual government executed sentences, not ISIS nutters
Few weeks back: Report: Muslim sentenced to death in Mauritania for apostasy and the infamous blogger case from this week, still due to be tried to apostasy.

I don't think you need to be chopping heads off to obviously not be a particularly tolerant system of belief towards people who leave the faith or that choose to become nonbelievers altogether. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but I am an apostate for the Russian Orthodox religion I was born into, won't be baptizing my kids and won't be raising them to believe in god. This has been a minor speed bump at worst in my relationship with my still-religious family. I can't think of a single Muslim acquaintance, from different countries and backgrounds, for whom such an act wouldn't be tantamount to social suicide, even though some would like to.

That's not to say that this is an exclusively Muslim phenomenon. Being the child of, say, Indian and Chinese immigrants can bring similar social pressures from insular communities (whom you should marry, etc), but only with Islam do I get the feeling that, within a generation or two, many of us will be adhering to its laws in one way or another whether we like it or not. Demographic trends are going one way and it's not a system of belief that sufficiently differentiates between holy law and law of the land, so something is going to give, perhaps simply democratically. I think some sort of reexamination or conflict (if only ideological) is inevitable. We can laugh at the misplaced sentiment of #jesuicharlie all we want, but I think anti-blasphemy laws (aimed at all faiths as to not discriminate, but really made to appease one) in Europe are a real possibility in the coming decades as a reaction to this attack and many others.
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  #863  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:12
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Zwingli drowned hundreds of people for insisting on being baptized again. Clearly, religious people don't like their beliefs challenged. But in the West, in Christianity, we got fed up with the senseless violence. Can't we ask Muslims to quickly get fed up with the senseless violence occurring today just the same? Is that really such an evil and racist request?
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Old 12.01.2015, 13:14
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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this is a typically vile post from you. I'm glad you've been so easily smoked out.

there are 1.8bn Muslims in the world and you're putting them all in the same boat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Demographics
Hmmm, yes, easily smoked out. Ok, then tell me what links 9/11, Bali Bombings, Mumbai 2008, 7/7, Charlie Hebdo, Gumsuri kidnappings, Kenya Shopping Mall attacks...etc. etc. etc.

Just a few isolated incidences are they?
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Old 12.01.2015, 13:15
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Al Jazeera: WE ARE NOT CHARLY!

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...global-support
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  #866  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:16
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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But in the West, in Christianity, we got fed up with the senseless violence.

LOL, are you for real?
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Old 12.01.2015, 13:16
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Hmmm, yes, easily smoked out. Ok, then tell me what links 9/11, Bali Bombings, Mumbai 2008, 7/7, Charlie Hebdo, Gumsuri kidnappings, Kenya Shopping Mall attacks...etc. etc. etc.

Just a few isolated incidences are they?

brain washed young men, could easily have been under the flying spaghetti monster flag as any other
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  #868  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:26
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

I have to credit some guts to French Prime Minister Manuel Valls statement on Saturday:
French Premier Declares ‘War’ on Radical Islam as Paris Girds for Rally
"It is a war against terrorism, against jihadism, against radical Islam, against everything that is aimed at breaking fraternity, freedom, solidarity,"

Very few in the Media, let alone public office, are willing or able to breathe Islam and terrorism in the same breath. Yet he has a big problem here in identifying what radical Islam is. There is no litmus test for it. Its a question of degree in applying some tenets of Islam in situations across time. It can differ from one moment to the next. A "moderate" can wake up grumpy one day and apply it radically. It is at the discretion of individual persons or groups to go radical. If there are tenets in Islam that prevent terrorism and extremism, it needs to be vociferously applied.
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Old 12.01.2015, 13:28
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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brain washed young men, could easily have been under the flying spaghetti monster flag as any other

Or the Irish flag, or the Basque flag, or the red flag, or the black flag, or the swastika.


I'm beginning to wonder if half of our correspondents on this thread have ever opened a newspaper in the last 40 years...
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Old 12.01.2015, 13:29
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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brain washed young men, could easily have been under the flying spaghetti monster flag as any other
But it's not the flying spaghetti monster that unites them is it. Nor has it ever been or ever will be.
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  #871  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:29
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Oh well, perhaps you could try Human Rights Watch or some other website not blocked by my company's Hate filter. Again, I am talking about an official State imposed death penalty being executed for the crime of apostasy, not extrajudicial, drive-by, terrorist takfiri group etc.. killings.

His true crime is criticising the Western-backed government of Saudi Arabia and their Clerical Stooges.
"On 3 September 1992 Sadiq 'Abdul-Karim Malallah was publicly beheaded in Al-Qatif in Saudi Arabia's Eastern Province after being convicted of apostasy and blasphemy. Sadiq Malallah, a Shi'a Muslim from Saudi Arabia, was arrested in April 1988 and charged with throwing stones at a police patrol. He was reportedly held in solitary confinement for long periods during his first months in detention and tortured prior to his first appearance before a judge in July 1988. The judge reportedly asked him to convert from Shi'a Islam to Sunni Wahhabi Islam, and allegedly promised him a lighter sentence if he complied. After he refused to do so, he was taken to al-Mabahith al-'Amma (General Intelligence) Prison in Dammam where he was held until April 1990. He was then transferred to al-Mabahith al-'Amma Prison in Riyadh, where he remained until the date of his execution. Sadiq Malallah is believed to have been involved in efforts to secure improved rights for Saudi Arabia's Shi'a Muslim minority.[15]

In 1994, Hadi Al-Mutif a teenager who was a Shi’a Ismaili Muslim from Najran in southwestern Saudi Arabia, made a remark that a court deemed blasphemous and was sentenced to death for apostasy. As of 2010[update], he was still in prison, had alleged physical abuse and mistreatment during his years of incarceration, and had reportedly made numerous suicide attempts.[16][17]

In 2012, Saudi poet[18] and journalist Hamza Kashgari [19][20] became the subject of a major controversy after being accused of insulting Muslim prophet Mohammad in three short messages (tweets) published on the Twitter online social networking service.[21][22] King Abdullah ordered that Kashgari be arrested "for crossing red lines and denigrating religious beliefs in God and His Prophet."[19]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...y_and_apostasy

"Saudi Arabia has no penal code, and defaults its law entirely to Sharia and its implementation to religious courts. The case law in Saudi Arabia, and consensus of its jurists is that Islamic law imposes the death penalty on apostates.[174]
Apostasy law is actively enforced in Saudi Arabia. For example, Saudi authorities charged Hamza Kashgari, a Saudi writer, in 2012 with apostasy based on comments he made on Twitter. He fled to Malaysia, where he was arrested and then extradited on request by Saudi Arabia to face charges.[175] Kashgari repented, upon which the courts ordered that he be placed in protective custody. Similarly, two Saudi Sunni Muslim citizens were arrested and charged with apostasy for adopting the Ahmadiyya sect of Islam.[176] As of May 2014, the two accused of apostasy had served two years in prison awaiting trial.[177]

Saudi Arabia school textbooks include chapters with justification for the social exclusion and killing of apostates.[178]

According to the "Online Saudi-arabian Curriculum مناهج السعودية الألكترونية",[179] taught at schools, we read under the title "Judgements on Apostates أحكام المرتدين" the following (in Arabic):[180]

"An Apostate will be suppressed three days in prison in order that he may repent ..... otherwise, he should be killed, because he has changed his true religion, therefore, there is no use from his living, regardless of being a man or a woman, as Mohammed said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him", narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostas...m#Saudi_Arabia

Saudi Arabia executed 61 people last year, but I can't find how many, if any, were due to being charged with apostasy. Two men are still being held on apostasy charges and have been in jail for 2 years.
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Old 12.01.2015, 13:31
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Or the Irish flag, or the Basque flag, or the red flag, or the black flag, or the swastika.


I'm beginning to wonder if half of our correspondents on this thread have ever opened a newspaper in the last 40 years...
I dare not. Wouldn't want to go on a murdering spree if the articles or pictures are not to my taste.
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  #873  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:31
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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All this bollocks about rational Muslims. How can you explain why there are so many terrorists, if they're all nutters? In many different countries all over the world and living under different circumstances. There is no evidence to support higher levels of psychological illness among terrorists. Nor any evidence to support a link between poverty and personal situation to likelihood to commit acts of terrorism. The ONLY thing that they have in common is their religion.
Did I say they were all psychologically ill? But they do lack reason, they do not question the axioms from where they decide their actions are justified. That is the "logic" of the extremist.

Lets go geographically JUST during the last hundred years, and look at examples of populations being terrorized by large numbers of people when twisted axioms take precedence over reason.

By no means a complete list

USA:
Jim Crow laws - based on the axiom that blacks are an inferior race

South America:
Take your pick between any number of communist and military governments.

Europe: Hmm ... where to begin
Facism - based on axioms about race, amongst others
Stalinism - based on axioms about the state being supreme
and of course the big one, Colonialism, based on axiom of the white mans burden, amongst others

Middle East:
The current mess - based on axioms from the Koran, and the age old axiom of might is right

India:
Caste - based on axioms that ones family determines occupation

China:
Maoism - based on axioms about the state being supreme

South Africa:
Apartheid - based on the axiom that blacks are an inferior race

Australia:
Aboriginal policies - based on the axiom that aborigines are an inferior race

All these have been reduced to a great degree by moving towards more reason, more civilization, sometimes with a step backwards for every two steps forwards. The right amount of violence is sometimes required, i.e the police response towards the terrorists.

NONE of them were stopped by trying different, greater forms of extremism, which seems to be happeing in the response to these killings i.e. adopting an axiom about all Muslims being this or that. What "logic" do you want to adopt?
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Old 12.01.2015, 13:42
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Couple of weeks ago at least 50 civilians have been killed in Syria by a US-led coalition airstrike.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2015/01/11/252671_us-airstrike-in-syria-may-have.html?rh=1

During the past several years France conducted military operations in Libya, Mali, Chad, Ivory Coast, Central African Repulic, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. How many civilians have been murdered during these operations?

France has to learn from the other European counries which have no Muslim terrorism issue and change its foreign policy.
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  #875  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:47
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Couple of weeks ago at least 50 civilians have been killed in Syria by a US-led coalition airstrike.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2015/01/11/252671_us-airstrike-in-syria-may-have.html?rh=1

During the past several years France conducted military operations in Libya, Mali, Chad, Ivory Coast, Central African Repulic, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. How many civilians have been murdered during these operations?

France has to learn from the European counries which have no Muslim terrorism issue and change its foreign policy.
Where is this coming from? Did you actually understand what the goal of the terrorists was?

The Charlie Hebdo cartoons were definitely not part of France`s foreign policy. The French government in the past requested these cartoons not be published, and then had to close down their embassies when the magazine went ahead and published them anyway.

All European countries have a problem of terrorism arising from religious fundamentalism, some more, some less. Dont troll the thread.
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Old 12.01.2015, 13:55
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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NONE of them were stopped by trying different, greater forms of extremism, which seems to be happeing in the response to these killings i.e. adopting an axiom about all Muslims being this or that. What "logic" do you want to adopt?
Scrabbling around looking any other excuse for these terrorist acts than the big obvious cause isn't going to solve the issue. People need to understand Islam is the cause. It sanctions force to impose itself. That's not to say all Muslims are terrorists, but this set of beliefs is behind the terrorist acts we're seeing today.

Comparing Islamic terrorism to the IRA or Eta just makes no sense. These organisations had political goals that were localised and achievable. What is the political goal of Islamic terrorists? The long term goal the world over for these terrorists is to impose their religion onto others.
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Old 12.01.2015, 13:55
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Where is this coming from? Did you actually understand what the goal of the terrorists was?

The Charlie Hebdo cartoons were definitely not part of France`s foreign policy. The French government in the past requested these cartoons not be published, and then had to close down their embassies when the magazine went ahead and published them anyway.

All European countries have a problem of terrorism arising from religious fundamentalism, some more, some less. Dont troll the thread.
it's indeed....The intervention in Mali (the president of Mali was next to Hollande yesterday in the rally) stopped the progression of the african arm of EI in Mali.
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Old 12.01.2015, 14:16
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Couple of weeks ago at least 50 civilians have been killed in Syria by a US-led coalition airstrike.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2015/01/11/252671_us-airstrike-in-syria-may-have.html?rh=1

During the past several years France conducted military operations in Libya, Mali, Chad, Ivory Coast, Central African Repulic, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. How many civilians have been murdered during these operations?

France has to learn from the other European counries which have no Muslim terrorism issue and change its foreign policy.
How do you distinguish between civilians and terrorists when terrorists wear no uniforms?
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Old 12.01.2015, 14:17
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Couple of weeks ago at least 50 civilians have been killed in Syria by a US-led coalition airstrike.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2015/01/11/252671_us-airstrike-in-syria-may-have.html?rh=1

During the past several years France conducted military operations in Libya, Mali, Chad, Ivory Coast, Central African Repulic, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. How many civilians have been murdered during these operations?

France has to learn from the other European counries which have no Muslim terrorism issue and change its foreign policy.
I totally agree that the mushrooming of jihadist terrorism has dramatically increased after the collapse of local dictatorships (Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, etc....). The intervention for "democratic" reasons by the US and other western/local states in those countries disrupted the system and created a new space where terrorist could train, get and distribute weapons and build a theory and argumentation to attract young lost people from europe & north africa.
A good example is Libya, I do not regret Kadhaffi but the situation today in Libya is a time bomb. All sorts of weapons and trafficking is happening there because the "state" disappeared. the ISIS is already there. They have a clear communication strategy that is state-of-the-art (internet, social media, etc...) targeting the lost youth in Europe. They tell them: you are not respected, no one cares about you, you have no future in Europe....we offer you the possibility to defend children and women, to build respect by doing war. That's how many young people land within the ISIS troops.
The recent french attacks on Charlie Hebdo also showed how prisons are used to radicalize people. All the "jihadists" that come back from Syria are put in the same prison ....and there they develop their network and radicalize other prisoners. Crazy!
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Old 12.01.2015, 14:17
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Scrabbling around looking any other excuse for these terrorist acts than the big obvious cause isn't going to solve the issue. People need to understand Islam is the cause. It sanctions force to impose itself. That's not to say all Muslims are terrorists, but this set of beliefs is behind the terrorist acts we're seeing today.

Comparing Islamic terrorism to the IRA or Eta just makes no sense. These organisations had political goals that were localised and achievable. What is the political goal of Islamic terrorists? The long term goal the world over for these terrorists is to impose their religion onto others.
About "That's not to say all Muslims are terrorists" 2 billion terrorists!! I surrender.
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