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  #941  
Old 13.01.2015, 00:11
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Scrabbling around looking any other excuse for these terrorist acts than the big obvious cause isn't going to solve the issue. People need to understand Islam is the cause. It sanctions force to impose itself. That's not to say all Muslims are terrorists, but this set of beliefs is behind the terrorist acts we're seeing today.

Comparing Islamic terrorism to the IRA or Eta just makes no sense. These organisations had political goals that were localised and achievable. What is the political goal of Islamic terrorists? The long term goal the world over for these terrorists is to impose their religion onto others.

A) the goals of the IRA and of ETA were NOT achievable at all
B) the goal of islamist terrorists is to force others to accept their ideas
C) the terrorists in question do NOT want to impose "their creed" onto others but first of all to force their creed onto all the other Muslims and then onto mankind
D) while ETA was not religious, IRA clearly WAS and IS
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  #942  
Old 13.01.2015, 00:16
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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At least half of those are composed of Muslims, and ETA and the IRA are no longer armed/active. However all of these are localised struggles. And they're also really obscure. Terror against western targets is perpetrated by people calling themselves Muslims. Exclusively.
About "all of these are localised struggles" but I did not mention the Taliban?
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  #943  
Old 13.01.2015, 00:18
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I'm afraid that this is giving the impression that the United States is more worried about not offending Muslims or Muslim allies than supporting France. There may have been only a fraction of the number of people killed than at the WTC, Pentagon, and Pennsylvania, but make no mistake---1/7 (or 7/1) is France's 9/11.

No no no, the problem of the USA has a name and that name is Kingdom of Saudi Arabia You cannot support the worst of the bad and then suddenly condemn them
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  #944  
Old 13.01.2015, 00:31
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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On the other hand, I am perfectly glad Obama and the US did not show much presence yesterday. It underlines the fact that this is not purely a US issue.
I don't follow. Who exactly did accuse them of what? It comes across as an answer to a real (as in non-imaginary) accusation of some sort, as you put it. Did France do that?
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  #945  
Old 13.01.2015, 00:41
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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hmmmm, so I guess you would prefer that the rest of the world simply permitted the people of Syria to suffer civil war for the next 20 years?



as for the actual topic, I apologize that this is in Swiss German (and further apologize if it has been posted elsewhere and I missed it), but I found this discussion interesting for a couple of reasons:

1. the poor Muslim woman obviously feels compelled, like many Muslims, to first express her outrage. I actually don't think rational Muslims have any obligation whatsoever to apologize for these horrific acts, nor do they have any obligation to "defend" or "explain" Islam, and I wish we would stop insisting that they do so.

2. I remain disappointed in how few people actually recognize that the problem has nothing to do with Islam, but rather with politics and oppression. Islam is the tool du jour, obviously, but the real problems are not intrinsic to Islam.

3. I loathe it when people try to draw a nexus between these acts of terrorism and the presence of western military forces in the middle east or Africa. that nexus exists without question when rebels attack US or other military convoys in Iraq or Syria, but to suggest that the murder of unarmed civilians in an office in Paris has any nexus whatsoever to a civil war in Syria or elsewhere is just plain absurd.

4. it disgusts me to see Netanyahu and others try to milk this tragedy for purposes of pushing their own political agenda.

you will have to click the link to the "Terror in Frankreich" piece for the video:

http://www.srf.ch/sendungen/arena

It is a PRIMEUR to see Netanyahu to show his sympathies for two Arab Muslims killed by extremîsts, and their families and friends
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  #946  
Old 13.01.2015, 00:58
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I can't imagine anyone doubting US and French commitment to their friendship. We have political capital to not show up. Despite Obama and brain damaged liberals, the US will not be going Sharia anytime soon. I think the US absence makes it clear that this is about western civilization, not a secretive US agenda.

Besides, it may have been more divisive and diminishing for the US to attend. The key message here was French unity. The government needs all the political capital it can scrounge up, as some upcoming measures may be unpopular.

Neither Obama nor other moderately minded Americans want to get Sharia introduced


NO, the key message was European unity.
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  #947  
Old 13.01.2015, 01:28
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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You know it's not just "PC Liberals" who find this endless whinging about Islam tiresome.

There's more than a billion of them and they're here to stay.

Get over it.
That's great. I don't have a problem with Muslims. The relationships with Muslim friends I have had has always been marked with a deep level of rapport, respect and understanding. Its the violence from extremism that is the issue. My Muslim friends themselves have voiced that.



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I don't follow. Who exactly did accuse them of what? It comes across as an answer to a real (as in non-imaginary) accusation of some sort, as you put it. Did France do that?
Reccuring tin-foil hat narrative you'll even see posted, even on EF, is that violent Islamic extremism was somehow created by the US, through its intervention, for some agenda having to do with oil and justifying some fantasy. No need for the US to upstage this moment of European unity and resolve, as this is something Europeans need to own.

Case in point....

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Some theories being floated by both Turkey and Russia here about the "reasons" behind these attacks.
According to the Russians - America has been behind all Islam terrorist attacks for the last 10 years.
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  #948  
Old 13.01.2015, 02:10
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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A) the goals of the IRA and of ETA were NOT achievable at all
B) the goal of islamist terrorists is to force others to accept their ideas
C) the terrorists in question do NOT want to impose "their creed" onto others but first of all to force their creed onto all the other Muslims and then onto mankind
D) while ETA was not religious, IRA clearly WAS and IS




IRA religious! Let me but this in my Irish wife`s
way " Ah Your heats cut "

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  #949  
Old 13.01.2015, 07:01
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Some theories being floated by both Turkey and Russia here about the "reasons" behind these attacks.
And some Americans

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  #950  
Old 13.01.2015, 07:49
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

The new front cover of Charlie Hebdo. Superb.

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  #951  
Old 13.01.2015, 08:20
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Well done to those media showing the front cover today. Seems to be in most of the CH, FR, DE media.

I notice only about one mainstream UK newspaper has shown it, a very small version.. So much for solidarity, but hey ho, I don't live there any more
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  #952  
Old 13.01.2015, 08:48
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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And some Americans

Look, I watched the original video on live leak earlier last week and had already come to exactly the same conclusion as the commentator for the same reasons - as did a friend of mine who has a lot of experience in firearms, in that the bullet did not hit the victim in that video clip. I just didn't mention anything as not a tin foil hatter.

I, however, don't go along with the commentators further speculation,

You can say what you want, but it's clear that this video does not show the shot to the head that killed the police officer.
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  #953  
Old 13.01.2015, 08:52
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Look, I watched the original video on live leak earlier last week and had already come to exactly the same conclusion as the commentator for the same reasons - as did a friend of mine who has a lot of experience in firearms, in that the bullet did not hit the victim in that video clip. I just didn't mention anything as not a tin foil hatter.

I, however, don't go along with the commentators further speculation,

You can say what you want, but it's clear that this video does not show the shot to the head that killed the police officer.
What do you think happened then? And do you think the purpose would be the purpose in releasing a fake video? Given the time between the attacl and that video getting posted, wouldn't it be too short to get something made up?
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Old 13.01.2015, 08:57
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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What do you think happened then? And do you think the purpose would be the purpose in releasing a fake video? Given the time between the attacl and that video getting posted, wouldn't it be too short to get something made up?
I don't know the answer to any of those questions, and I wouldn't even care to speculate. I'm just going with what my eyes tell me.
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  #955  
Old 13.01.2015, 09:03
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Look, I watched the original video on live leak earlier last week and had already come to exactly the same conclusion as the commentator for the same reasons - as did a friend of mine who has a lot of experience in firearms, in that the bullet did not hit the victim in that video clip. I just didn't mention anything as not a tin foil hatter.

I, however, don't go along with the commentators further speculation,

You can say what you want, but it's clear that this video does not show the shot to the head that killed the police officer.
See my previous posts, waaay back about the ID etc.. The video was on liveleek very quickly, i saw it probably within an hour?

However my tinfoil hat detector does say that there were a lot of witnesses to this.. And also that it would depend on the type of 7.62 round, what type of damage it would do, straight through or dump it's energy in the target.

Who knows
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Old 13.01.2015, 09:58
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The new front cover of Charlie Hebdo. Superb.

I hope people get the message that killing does not solve their problem; just makes it worse.
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  #957  
Old 13.01.2015, 10:01
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

fwiw, my twopence rappen's worth, I saw the original uncut clip on BBC (cautioned with "this is sensitive so you may want to look away" or words to that effect) and didn't think it strange at all.
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Old 13.01.2015, 10:18
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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And some Americans



well, I guess you can find anything on the internet.
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Old 13.01.2015, 10:20
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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D) while ETA was not religious, IRA clearly WAS and IS
Define religious.

IRA laid claim to being Catholic, but I don't remember them ever quoting the bible or parading staues of the Virgin Mary.

If you look at ETA's history, they are also a mixed bag. The early ETA fighters (it was not yet called ETA then) claim the Virgin Mary appeared to them and encouraged them to take up arms for the Basque cause. If that isn't a religious foundation, I don't know what is. In the early days the Basques were nationalist and pretty right wing and there was even a German-inspired National Socialist movement in the Basque country for a brief period. The Basques switched to the Republican side in time for the Civil War when they realized the Spanish Nationalists were not open to discussing Basque independence.
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Old 13.01.2015, 10:26
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Reccuring tin-foil hat narrative you'll even see posted, even on EF, is that violent Islamic extremism was somehow created by the US, through its intervention, for some agenda having to do with oil and justifying some fantasy. No need for the US to upstage this moment of European unity and resolve, as this is something Europeans need to own.

Case in point....
Europeans? Who are these creatures? All I've seen so far were the endless discussions about the nonsense of such a concept.
But, if France goes down we'll all go down sooner or later so it's better to be united. Oh, and I'm sure there's more than this reason behind Obama not showing up in Paris.
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