France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks] - Page 54

greenmount · #**1061** 14.01.2015, 10:33

	Quote:
	I'm just amused by the fact that civil liberties are REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT and NOT AT ALL IMPORTANT at the same time. Western values, eh? Aye, when they suit...

I took it MG would exercise caution anyway...It's a long, long, long way from denying a twat the right to be a twat...

amogles · #**1062** 14.01.2015, 10:36

	Quote:	MidfieldGeneral
	surely its about context and who says it and when. I don't think Boris Johnson is a racist so if he said that I would agree with him but if say Nigel Farage said it then I would be highly suspicious of his motives.

If we know somebody is a racist, any controversial statement they make proves even more that they are a racist.

If we know they're a good guy, the same statement shows they have a grip on relaity and the balls to say what others won't dare to speak about.

Non-racist racism = good
Racist racism = bad.

Simple really.

idefix · #**1063** 14.01.2015, 10:39

	Quote:
	Interesting. There are several aspects of modern European culture I find thoroughly objectionable. Should I, therefore, also "faff off", or do different rules apply to blue eyed white men like me?

Absolutely. Thailand has better understanding of such "objectionable aspects of modern life"

amogles · #**1064** 14.01.2015, 10:43

	Quote:
	Interesting. There are several aspects of modern European culture I find thoroughly objectionable. Should I, therefore, also "faff off", or do different rules apply to blue eyed white men like me?

We used to be able to solve such problems by having such people faff off to uninhabited (cough cough) continents such as North America or Australia.

The Isle of Wight doesn't really cut it somehow.

NotAllThere · #**1065** 14.01.2015, 10:44

	Quote:	amogles
	... Non-racist racism = good Racist racism = bad..

To expand:

1) Non-racist pointing out cultural differences and negative aspects of some cultures = good, since driven by a concern for the greater good of everyone.

2) Racist pointing out cultural differences and negative aspects of some cultures = bad, since driven by a hatred of the foreigner/immigrant.

3) Tell 1) to shut up, because they're racist = bad, since it suppresses debate and doesn't address issues that need to be addressed

greenmount · #**1066** 14.01.2015, 10:44

	Quote:
	Must have missed it- where did she propose a Court of law to Judge fairly who is, or isn't, a terrorist? Where would she draw, and expect others to draw when executing her 'orders'- the line? Could you enlighten me about where YOU would decide on who needs to be killed or not- in this context. In the Paris case, it was quite obvious and clear, and they were killed- but in many cases it would not. Pray tell. Not what happened is not about the USA, or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan- but about the situation in France- which is totally different, with mostly peaceful and non threatening and 'terrorist' Muslims. Comparing what happens in Nigeria or wherever does not help finding solutions for France as a country, does it? But when Murdoch and his pals in his big empire clearly appropriate what is happening in Paris and in France, to lie (the Birmingham rant was very funny, but... just illustrates how well their 'facts and research' are poor and biased) and misuse to sway US citizens who already hate Muslims and immigrants in general, many of which and probably the majority, Fox News watchers- then it is very concerning imho.

I'm wondering if this assessment is true.

amogles · #**1067** 14.01.2015, 10:48

	Quote:	NotAllThere
	1) Non-racist pointing out cultural differences and negative aspects of some cultures = good, since driven by a concern for the greater good of everyone. 2) Racist pointing out cultural differences and negative aspects of some cultures = bad, since driven by a hatred of the foreigner/immigrant.

What they have in common is that both hate those who oppose the common good.

The common good, of course, is often just a euphemism for the the point of view of whoever happens to be speaking.

If the trueness of a (non personal) statement depends on who is speaking it, that sort of goes against the concept of all men being equal.

greenmount · #**1068** 14.01.2015, 11:12

	Quote:	amogles
	What they have in common is that both hate those who oppose the common good. The common good, of course, is often just a euphemism for the the point of view of whoever happens to be speaking. If the trueness of a (non personal) statement depends on who is speaking it, that sort of goes against the concept of all men being equal.

We might go around in circles about racism and racists, but to me this lady is spot on. There won't be any real discussions. Not now, and probably not later.

	Quote:
	Those of us who value freedom need to understand better what it means. Especially in a world which is both coalescing and splitting apart, where technology has unleashed hope and possibilities as well as limitless hate, where political and religious control is tightening. To seek to be free is a big responsibility. Too big and scary for some people, Western Muslims in particular. This is the debate that needs to open up now within Islam. Will it? No. And that’s our tragedy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...n-9971118.html

Tom1234 · #**1069** 14.01.2015, 11:16

	Quote:
	Interesting. There are several aspects of modern European culture I find thoroughly objectionable. Should I, therefore, also "faff off", or do different rules apply to blue eyed white men like me?

I think it depends on whether you are trying to enforce those views on others by threats or other means.

I.e. If you want to protest in Brick Lane against the local shops selling alcohol then go ahead but if you are a young thug going around threatening people and telling them that they are in a Muslim area where Sharia law applies then yes, you can f**k of to the country where we all know you have dual nationality and where drink is not so visible (but people still drink).

#**1070** 14.01.2015, 12:16

	Quote:	greenmount
	I'm wondering if this assessment is true.

Agreed, it reads wrong. Edited earlier post to 'THOSE US citizens who' - plenty enough already- not all Repuplicans, but a large majority, including of course the Tea Party and all.

farmadoc · #**1071** 14.01.2015, 12:25

	Quote:	Wollishofener
	Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi Business Tycoon

No, that's his family.

	Quote:	Wollishofener
	who purchased Services from the CIA in Peshawar

No, not true either.

But forget him. Let's cast our minds back a long long time ago to a place far, far away...5 months before in fact, deep on the other side of the small town of Abottabad where Umar Patek of the Bali bombings was arrested.

	Quote:
	Should I, therefore, also "faff off", or do different rules apply to blue eyed white men like me?

No, you should also faff off. This has nothing to do with Islam or brown people. There are some basic tenets of western liberal societies which are existential imperatives.

amogles · #**1072** 14.01.2015, 12:40

	Quote:	farmadoc
	No, you should also faff off. This has nothing to do with Islam or brown people. There are some basic tenets of western liberal societies which are existential imperatives.

What are the existential imperatives of western society that require people holding objections to certain aspects thereof to leave.

Aren't the same western liberal societies preaching that the rest of the world should adopt their model and become as liberal as they are.

Where then can those who object find refuge?

Or does freedom only extend to those in agreement?

marton · #**1073** 14.01.2015, 13:22

	Quote:	Wollishofener
	Where and how ? Pakistan is neither hosting nor training Islamist radicals If you really know more you might inform us ************************************************ ******** And there is no indication that the Pakistanis want to be Arabs, none at all

In 2009, it is claimed Pakistani President Asif Zardari admitted at a conference in Islamabad that Pakistan had, in the past created terrorist groups as a tool for its geostrategic agenda.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...st-groups.html

Same from Mussharef;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11474618

US embassy cables: Pakistan home to 43 'terrorist camps' – Indian army chief
http://www.theguardian.com/world/us-...cuments/214316

&&&&&&

Kosti · #**1074** 14.01.2015, 13:40

	Quote:	amogles
	What are the existential imperatives of western society that require people holding objections to certain aspects thereof to leave. Aren't the same western liberal societies preaching that the rest of the world should adopt their model and become as liberal as they are. Where then can those who object find refuge? Or does freedom only extend to those in agreement?

Atleast for this diagreeable guy, it certainly looks like that freedom doesnt extend to him.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...y-paris-gunman

I dont like it, but dont see what amounts to incitement in what he has said.

crazygringo · #**1075** 14.01.2015, 13:46

	Quote:
	Interesting. There are several aspects of modern European culture I find thoroughly objectionable. Should I, therefore, also "faff off", or do different rules apply to blue eyed white men like me?

living in Switzerland affords you the luxury of being "part of Europe" when it suits you and not being "part of Europe" when it suits you. instead of faffing off over the things you find objectionable, just blame the EU, throw a pinch of muesli over your shoulder and say 3 "Danke Ueli"'s and you'll be perfectly fine.

marton · #**1076** 14.01.2015, 13:53

Double posted; well the two threads overlap

This weeks print run now raised to 5m from 3m.

The law of unexpected consequences strikes again!

As already posted the irony is that the magazine was not in a good financial state; if left alone it might even have closed - now it is a huge success plus received cash injections

Russkov · #**1077** 14.01.2015, 13:58

	Quote:	marton
	Double posted; well the two threads overlap This weeks print run now raised to 5m from 3m. The law of unexpected consequences strikes again! As already posted the irony is that the magazine was not in a good financial state; if left alone it might even have closed - now it is a huge success plus received cash injections

Allah works in mysterious ways.

MidfieldGeneral · #**1078** 14.01.2015, 14:01

I have never read it, does it have adverts? if so who is advertising? they could cash in big time

Castro · #**1079** 14.01.2015, 14:08

	Quote:	Kosti
	Atleast for this diagreeable guy, it certainly looks like that freedom doesnt extend to him. http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...y-paris-gunman I dont like it, but dont see what amounts to incitement in what he has said.

A thoroughly unpleasant man, however this may be his most important contribution to date.

Tom1234 · #**1080** 14.01.2015, 14:12

	Quote:	MidfieldGeneral
	I have never read it, does it have adverts?* if so who is advertising? they could cash in big time*

Quite a few actually in past issues:

Emirates Airline‎s
Saudi Airlines
Pakistan International Airlines

and Mecca Bingo.