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  #1141  
Old 15.01.2015, 11:39
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I would say you should be allowed to mock the Holocaust and 9/11, everything should be open, as long as it's not inciting hatred. But why would you want to do it? The majority of people would turn on you if you did, and rightly so.

I just don't see how mocking a religion can be compared with mocking actual events. And it seems that Charlie Hebdo don't either, hence their choice of subject matter.
Time and again it comes down to different perspectives and a break down in human empathy e.g. I am an atheist with a fundamental hatred of all religion and therefore I will take the piss out of any religious figures and any superstitious idiot who doesn't like it can go to hell.

However if someone were to wipe their bottom with my Flag or play La Marseillaise backwards over a dope beat then they should rightly be arrested and fined or thrown in prison (its a crime to insult the French national anthem or flag, punishable by a fine of upto €7,500 and 6 months in jail).

So an abstract notion of nationalism is sacred, but not something equally tangible and important to an individual as their religious and cultural identity??
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  #1142  
Old 15.01.2015, 11:48
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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......
Another awful article by someone who doesn't understand liberal values or the concept of free speech. But first, Batman, to he credentials!

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Does it not bother you to see Barack Obama – who demanded that Yemen keep the anti-drone journalist Abdulelah Haider Shaye behind bars, after he was convicted on “terrorism-related charges” in a kangaroo court – jump on the free speech ban wagon? Weren’t you sickened to see Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of a country that was responsible for the killing of seven journalists in Gaza in 2014, attend the “unity rally” in Paris? Bibi was joined by Angela Merkel, chancellor of a country where Holocaust denial is punishable by up to five years in prison, and David Cameron, who wants to ban non-violent “extremists” committed to the “overthrow of democracy” from appearing on television
Horrific figures of anti-freedom attended the rally (Obama didn't but he did bad stuff, promise). The leaders of Germany (Freedom House ranking 1), Britain (Freedom House ranking 1), Israel (Freedom House ranking 1.5). How they hate freedom with their democracies and many (not unlimited) free speech guarantees. Mentioning the attendence of Russia (Freedom House ranking 5.5), Turkey (Freedom house ranking 3.5) and Palestine (unranked) would surely spoilt the point and further his "as a Muslim" credentials.

And he's further missing the point. The reason, the only reason why CH didn't make fun of the holocaust or 9/11 was that they couldn't find a joke there. Not that they happened or Mohammed didn't. But that they found the idea of a desert illiterate giving rise to a giant religion that (CH saw) as doing a lot of blowing themselves up as funny. Again, the anti-semites will say "why didn't they make fun of Jews" but of course they did, prolifically, with Nazi caricatures galore.

And once more - freedom of speech means, most simply, freedom to insult. Because fundamentally, you can't give an insult, you can only take one. People can choose to be insulted about any random thing. The non-Muslims of Europe could get together in a club, call it a religion and decide they worship Mohammed as a deity of their new religion and they get insulted when his picture isn't published on the front cover of ever paper, ever day.

You can't pander to these idiots who are "insulted". Bring it all out into the open. Holocaust denial too by the way. Let's see where these people are, who laughs, who doesn't.
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  #1143  
Old 15.01.2015, 11:50
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Time and again it comes down to different perspectives and a break down in human empathy e.g. I am an atheist with a fundamental hatred of all religion and therefore I will take the piss out of any religious figures and any superstitious idiot who doesn't like it can go to hell.

However if someone were to wipe their bottom with my Flag or play La Marseillaise backwards over a dope beat then they should rightly be arrested and fined or thrown in prison (its a crime to insult the French national anthem or flag, punishable by a fine of upto €7,500 and 6 months in jail).

So an abstract notion of nationalism is sacred, but not something equally tangible and important to an individual as their religious and cultural identity??
In my opinion vehement nationalism is equally as absurd as religion and I'd quite happily see them both binned.
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  #1144  
Old 15.01.2015, 11:50
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Time and again it comes down to different perspectives and a break down in human empathy e.g. I am an atheist with a fundamental hatred of all religion and therefore I will take the piss out of any religious figures and any superstitious idiot who doesn't like it can go to hell.

However if someone were to wipe their bottom with my Flag or play La Marseillaise backwards over a dope beat then they should rightly be arrested and fined or thrown in prison (its a crime to insult the French national anthem or flag, punishable by a fine of upto €7,500 and 6 months in jail).

So an abstract notion of nationalism is sacred, but not something equally tangible and important to an individual as their religious and cultural identity??
FWIW, I think nationalism is just as moronic as religion.
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  #1145  
Old 15.01.2015, 11:55
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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In my opinion vehement nationalism is equally as absurd as religion and I'd quite happily see them both binned.
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FWIW, I think nationalism is just as moronic as religion.
My favourite quote on the subject is:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"
- Samuel Johnson (1774)
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  #1146  
Old 15.01.2015, 12:00
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Please get a grip. None of us believes in an untrammelled right to free speech. We all agree there are always going to be lines that, for the purposes of law and order, cannot be crossed; or for the purposes of taste and decency, should not be crossed. We differ only on where those lines should be drawn.
he is 110% wrong in the above statement, which of course is the foundational premise of his essay. I believe in an absolutely untrammelled right to free speech, for example, as I suspect do others, as well.
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Old 15.01.2015, 12:00
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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My favourite quote on the subject is:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"
- Samuel Johnson (1774)
Some of my patriotic Swiss friends have claimed in all seriousness that if society broke down and borders didn't exist anymore, as Genevans they'd still feel more solidarity with someone from St. Gaalen than with someone 2km away in France (despite speaking terrible or no Swiss German). My reaction was the same as when someone brings up Jesus, "Oookay, have fun with that notion."
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  #1148  
Old 15.01.2015, 12:03
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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he is 110% wrong in the above statement, which of course is the foundational premise of his essay. I believe in an absolutely untrammelled right to free speech, for example, as I suspect do others, as well.
Fair enough, but then practice what you preach.
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  #1149  
Old 15.01.2015, 12:05
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Time and again it comes down to different perspectives and a break down in human empathy e.g. I am an atheist with a fundamental hatred of all religion and therefore I will take the piss out of any religious figures and any superstitious idiot who doesn't like it can go to hell.

However if someone were to wipe their bottom with my Flag or play La Marseillaise backwards over a dope beat then they should rightly be arrested and fined or thrown in prison (its a crime to insult the French national anthem or flag, punishable by a fine of upto €7,500 and 6 months in jail).

So an abstract notion of nationalism is sacred, but not something equally tangible and important to an individual as their religious and cultural identity??
If I "insult" the French flag in China will I be punished there or what would be the consequences? And more importantly, how could one insult the French flag? Making underpants out of it, bras, what exactly could constitute an insult?
P.S. One thing I'm sure of is that at least there won't be death threats...

Last edited by greenmount; 15.01.2015 at 12:20.
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  #1150  
Old 15.01.2015, 12:09
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Some of my patriotic Swiss friends have claimed in all seriousness that if society broke down and borders didn't exist anymore, as Genevans they'd still feel more solidarity with someone from St. Gaalen than with someone 2km away in France (despite speaking terrible or no Swiss German). My reaction was the same as when someone brings up Jesus, "Oookay, have fun with that notion."
That's the key to Switzerland. Don't mock it. It's what makes Switzerland work despite its four languages and different cultures.
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  #1151  
Old 15.01.2015, 12:17
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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FWIW, I think nationalism is just as moronic as religion.
Me too but that shouldn't matter - everyone should be free to do clever things or stupid things as they like where they don't affect other people's rights and freedoms (not their sensibilities). And by the way, I put the Swiss people's dislike of minarets directly in the sensibilities category. Bastards.
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Old 15.01.2015, 12:22
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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So in Franch they're having a crackdown on "hate speech". What I find odd is the following though:
  • A man of 22 was jailed on Tuesday for a year for posting a video mocking one of the three murdered policemen
  • A man of 20 was jailed in Orleans for shouting "long live the Kalash[(nikov]" at police in a shopping centre

Surely if no one is getting threatened then this is just freedom of speech? No matter how sick it may be.

Meanwhile, the media of the Muslim world don't seem to be able to distinguish between race and religion.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30812155
Difficult to comment without knowing the background.
The fanatics who did the shooting were "known to the police" but you cannot lock people up because of what they might do.
Possibly these people were also "known to the police" so the police are now taking the opportunity in the current climate to lock them up; or maybe that is too optimistic a scenario?
As already posted following such people is not practical; policemen in France work around 35 hours per week so you would need at least 5 police for each suspect; probably double that so they can take toilet and meal breaks.

I am not sure why this thread has drifted into a discussion on freedom of speech. I assume we all believe we should not kill people who say things we do not like?

Maybe there is a hidden assumption that if Charlie had been stopped then there would have been no shootings? This assumption is destroyed by the fact there were killings a long way away from the Charlie premises and unrelated to freedom of speech.

BTW, I liked the quote about patriotism
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  #1153  
Old 15.01.2015, 12:24
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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If I "insult" the French flag in China will I be punished there or what would be the consequences? And more importantly, how could one insult the French flag? Making underpants out of it, bras, what exactly could constitute an insult?
P.S. One thing I'm sure of is that at least there won't be death threats...
No punishment in China but if the French issue an European arrest warrant then do not visit anywhere in Europe
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  #1154  
Old 15.01.2015, 12:25
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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That's the key to Switzerland. Don't mock it. It's what makes Switzerland work despite its four languages and different cultures.
Really? I thought it was other things like having a good work ethic, taking pretty much anyone's money, etc. are what make Switzerland work. Not having completely unrealistic and irrational ideas about what your cultural identity would imply in the face of a hypothetical apocalypse.
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Old 15.01.2015, 12:26
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Some of my patriotic Swiss friends have claimed in all seriousness that if society broke down and borders didn't exist anymore, as Genevans they'd still feel more solidarity with someone from St. Gaalen than with someone 2km away in France (despite speaking terrible or no Swiss German). My reaction was the same as when someone brings up Jesus, "Oookay, have fun with that notion."
Despite the fact that the French Swiss say Schweizerdeutsch is not a language but a disease
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  #1156  
Old 15.01.2015, 12:31
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I am not sure why this thread has drifted into a discussion on freedom of speech. I assume we all believe we should not kill people who say things we do not like?

Maybe there is a hidden assumption that if Charlie had been stopped then there would have been no shootings? This assumption is destroyed by the fact there were killings a long way away from the Charlie premises and unrelated to freedom of speech.
Apart from EF, reading various newspapers from different countries I got the feeling that indeed there are people who believe that the cartoons were provocative and if they didn't exist maybe there would have been no shootings.
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Old 15.01.2015, 12:35
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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No punishment in China but if the French issue an European arrest warrant then do not visit anywhere in Europe
Marton, I'd really, really like to see the French doing this.... But let's fabulate for the sake of it.

Anyway, it wouldn't be anywhere in Europe, perhaps anywhere in EU only.
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Old 15.01.2015, 12:36
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Apart from EF, reading various newspapers from different countries I got the feeling that indeed there are people who believe that the cartoons were provocative and if they didn't exist maybe there would have been no shootings.
The whole Free Speech debate is a complete red herring, these men weren't radicalised by cartoons but events taking place 000s of miles away in Iraq. When they chose to strike and make a point, rather than hitting a French military base they chose a much softer target. Charlie Hebdo was a lightening rod for their rage, but NOT the cause.
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Old 15.01.2015, 12:46
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The whole Free Speech debate is a complete red herring, these men weren't radicalised by cartoons but events taking place 000s of miles away in Iraq. When they chose to strike and make a point, rather than hitting a French military base they chose a much softer target. Charlie Hebdo was a lightening rod for their rage, but NOT the cause.
You're right. It was designed to divide Muslims from the West, and they certainly picked a key issue to stoke. What we need to do is be able to talk this through, articulating beyond "I'll Keel You". This process IS the value of Free Speech itself. Free Speech is less about whether or not some others have the Freedom to be idiots. Call that one Free Idiocy instead.
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Old 15.01.2015, 12:52
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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The whole Free Speech debate is a complete red herring, these men weren't radicalised by cartoons but events taking place 000s of miles away in Iraq. When they chose to strike and make a point, rather than hitting a French military base they chose a much softer target. Charlie Hebdo was a lightening rod for their rage, but NOT the cause.
....and here we get to the core of the problem.

There's this Islamic State everyone discuss about, but still very few discussions about Western interventions and politics in the region...

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You're right. It was designed to divide Muslims from the West, and they certainly picked a key issue to stoke. What we need to do is be able to talk this through, articulating beyond "I'll Keel You". This process IS the value of Free Speech itself. Free Speech is less about whether or not some others have the Freedom to be idiots. Call that one Free Idiocy instead.
..but that surely means also being self critical, hopefully?
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