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  #1221  
Old 16.01.2015, 15:11
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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As patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, anti-zionisn is the first refuge of ther antisemite.
True. And I hate schmaltz herring. I could be an anti-semite but in this case you'll have to trust, it's just not to my taste. Judge on merit, not on perceived patterns or association and you'll be fine.

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You are entitiled to your view about Israel. No Israeli will attack your kids school because of them.
Of course they will. Israel has swung so far to the right over the last 25 years it's almost unrecognisable. They're not fighting for religion though and have little to do with being Jewish - they're fighting for nationalism and ardent, passionate, jingoistic nationalism at that. And that's exactly as bad.



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You should participate in debates about Israel in the same way Shell participates in debates about global warming - with clear declaration of interest and not as a Mod.
Mods are members first and if anything (as Phos says) Castro doesn't contribute enough for my liking on these interesting threads.
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  #1222  
Old 16.01.2015, 15:16
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

There were two different news.

Another incidents, although clearly linked to terrorism, happened in Belgium. You should have opened that link, really.
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  #1223  
Old 16.01.2015, 15:16
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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As patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, anti-zionisn is the first refuge of ther antisemite.
I am actually confused by what you intend with the above statement?

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Old 16.01.2015, 15:23
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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There were two different news.

Another incidents, although clearly linked to terrorism, happened in Belgium. You should have opened that link, really.
Yes, I knew about the incident in Belgium. I was agreeing with Marton that there is an ongoing incident in Paris today.
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  #1225  
Old 16.01.2015, 15:36
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I am actually confused by what you intend with the above statement?

Simples: AntiZionism is usually Antisemitism. Judging Israel (and Jews) by different criteria than other nations.


Back to the subject - A very common Arab reaction to Charlie Hebdo cartoons was to publish antisemitic cartoons as if to prove parity.
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Old 16.01.2015, 15:39
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Simples: AntiZionism is usually Antisemitism. Judging Israel (and Jews) by different criteria than other nations.
It can be and but I think the correlation is more usual among Europeans with little vested interest. I see no more shock in people from the region being anti-Zionism/Israel than I do Jews in Europe being pro-Zionism. But I agree, when I hear a Swedish person who's never been to the region talk about the Palestinians constantly and ignore every other conflict in the world, we know why they're doing that. This isn't the case here however.
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Old 16.01.2015, 15:45
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Simples: AntiZionism is usually Antisemitism. Judging Israel (and Jews) by different criteria than other nations.
but Zionism is, at its root, little more than patriotism?

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  #1228  
Old 16.01.2015, 15:46
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

I really don't understand the linkage of Charlie Hebdo to Jews and Israel. Anyone care to explain?

But I do understand the linkage of Islamic terrorism and Israel. The existence of Israel is the cause celebre of Islamic terrorists, and is symbolic of Muslim victimization in their narrative.

But you realize this is form of thinking is an existential threat to Jews? Its not like the Jews have never seen it before. Israel represents just about the only safe haven the Jews have in the world today. Well, apart from New York City. But why deprive Jews a place to safely exist?
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  #1229  
Old 16.01.2015, 15:48
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I see no more shock in people from the region being anti-Zionism/Israel than I do Jews in Europe being pro-Zionism. But I agree, when I hear a Swedish person who's never been to the region talk about the Palestinians constantly and ignore every other conflict in the world, we know why they're doing that. This isn't the case here however.
1. Why should an Algerian or a Pakistani be an Antisemite ?

2. Note the lack of activity in threads about Syria, and no threads about western Sahara's occupation by Morroco or many of the other wars & crises in the Muslim world. The number of Muslims killed by Muslims is far greater than the number killed by Israel - but it get very little attention.

Last edited by Pashosh; 16.01.2015 at 16:23.
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  #1230  
Old 16.01.2015, 15:51
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Simples: AntiZionism is usually Antisemitism. Judging Israel (and Jews) by different criteria than other nations
As Pashosh knows better than anyone else, not every Zionist is a Jew and not every Jew a Zionist.
Vast swathes of the US identify as pro-Zionist as do their representative politicians, there are even Arab-Muslim Zionists.

Conversely there are huge numbers of 'Not in my name' Jews who abhor the direction Israel has taken in the last decade or so and are extremely vocal in distancing their faith from this political ideology.

It is nothing more than smear tactics designed to silence critical debate. Its as nonsensical as calling me a racist for condemning the Hutu massacre of Tutsis in Rwanda. And for the record I have been equally scathing of corrupt Arab regimes who subjugate, torture and murder their own people. I have no love for any of them.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with events in France so I will leave it there.
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  #1231  
Old 16.01.2015, 15:53
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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1. Why should an Algerian or a Pakistani be an Antisemite ?
Firstly, because there is a global Muslim community/Ummah, however weak. It exists and Israel harms Muslims, and that's it. As far as Pakistanis are concerned, there is a huge amount of illiteracy and tribalism there to the extent that I'd do specific research into the individual before I started attributing any actions to the fact that they think they're Muslim.

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2. Note the lack of activity in threads about Syria, and no threads about western Sahara's occupation by Morroco or many of the other wars & crises in the Muslim world. The number of Muslims killed by Muslims is far greater than the number killed by Israel - but it get very little attention.
Of course, and black slavery in the US is widely discussed but the fate of Africans in Africa isn't. I'd look at it the opposite way though - unfortunately the Arab world and Africa are looked at as black holes by the west, where no one can help them because they're essentially savages who can't help themselves. Of course this is untrue but it's in that direct that a lot of the prejudice lies.
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  #1232  
Old 16.01.2015, 15:53
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Pashosh, I find myself agreeing with Castro at times, and disgreeing with him at times, but I see no evidence that he abuses his power as moderator for any purpose.
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  #1233  
Old 16.01.2015, 15:54
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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As Pashosh knows better than anyone else, not every Zionist is a Jew and not every Jew a Zionist.
Vast swathes of the US identify as pro-Zionist as do their representative politicians, there are even Arab-Muslim Zionists.

Conversely there are huge numbers of 'Not in my name' Jews who abhor the direction Israel has taken in the last decade or so and are extremely vocal in distancing their faith from this political ideology.
And the majority of Jews are neither. They're zionists who believe in the basic right of Israel to exist but deplore many but not all of Israel's foreign policy decisions. If all the Jews thought Israel was the best, they'd all move there.
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  #1234  
Old 16.01.2015, 15:57
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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And the majority of Jews are neither. They're zionists who believe in the basic right of Israel to exist but deplore many but not all of Israel's foreign policy decisions. If all the Jews thought Israel was the best, they'd all move there.
About "If all the Jews thought Israel was the best, they'd all move there" But that would require Israel to take over the whole West Bank to have enough room for them all; is this what you are proposing?
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Old 16.01.2015, 15:59
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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About "If all the Jews thought Israel was the best, they'd all move there" But that would require Israel to take over the whole West Bank to have enough room for them all; is this what you are proposing?
Fighting for more land is for primitives. Hong Kong, Monaco, San Marino, the Vatican, Macao, Botswana, Andorra, Costa Rica, the Bahamas....they're all doing fine with very little land. It's called a sky scraper. Start building them and stop fighting like animals.

IMO
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Old 16.01.2015, 16:01
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I really don't understand the linkage of Charlie Hebdo to Jews and Israel. Anyone care to explain?

But I do understand the linkage of Islamic terrorism and Israel. The existence of Israel is the cause celebre of Islamic terrorists, and is symbolic of Muslim victimization in their narrative.

But you realize this is form of thinking is an existential threat to Jews? Its not like the Jews have never seen it before. Israel represents just about the only safe haven the Jews have in the world today. Well, apart from New York City. But why deprive Jews a place to safely exist?
About "The existence of Israel is the cause celebre of Islamic terrorists" So why don't they blame the United Nations who organised the location and move to the Promised Land?
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  #1237  
Old 16.01.2015, 16:04
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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About "The existence of Israel is the cause celebre of Islamic terrorists" So why don't they blame the United Nations who organised the location and move to the Promised Land?
Because they're not morons. The UN doesn't exist. Nor, by the way, does international law. But maybe we're veering towards a thread split here entitled "usual crap"
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  #1238  
Old 16.01.2015, 16:05
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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About "If all the Jews thought Israel was the best, they'd all move there" But that would require Israel to take over the whole West Bank to have enough room for them all; is this what you are proposing?
Maybe I'm confusing you with somebody else. But on anyother thread, when we were talking about the Einwanderungsinitiative, weren't you saying that Switzerland shouldn't be closing its borders to immigration. To hell with overpopulation. But now you are saying that Israel should?

I don't think there is a direct correlation between West Bank settlements and immigration. If Israel wanted to, they could settle those people elsewhere, and if they wanted to build settlements on the West Bank, they would do so even without immigration.
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  #1239  
Old 16.01.2015, 16:07
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I'll add those who provide real support. But not moral support. And not those who might at some point in the future become a terrorist. Enough drone strikes and that number rises towards 100%
About "Enough drone strikes and that number rises...." Were the Paris fanatics claiming their terrorist controllers in Yemen were getting hit by drone strikes? If so, I missed that - do you have a link?
Thanks
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  #1240  
Old 16.01.2015, 16:09
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Maybe I'm confusing you with somebody else. But on anyother thread, when we were talking about the Einwanderungsinitiative, weren't you saying that Switzerland shouldn't be closing its borders to immigration. To hell with overpopulation. But now you are saying that Israel should?

I don't think there is a direct correlation between West Bank settlements and immigration. If Israel wanted to, they could settle those people elsewhere, and if they wanted to build settlements on the West Bank, they would do so even without immigration.
About "I don't think there is a direct correlation between West Bank settlements and immigration." I think there is a direct link
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