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Old 22.01.2015, 12:56
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Please can you explain to me (a Brit) what I "know full well what the exaggerrated claims refer to" because I don't understand this comment
Are there not neighborhoods in the UK that are predominantly Muslim, have Sharia councils, and Sharia patrols? Those.

In Paris, I recall a homosexual being severely beaten by such gangs claiming he was walking through a Muslim neighborhood. They have reportedly harassed pedestrians for being dressed "improperly" or couples holding hands. My Parissiene friends advised me to beware of these neighborhoods in the 19th and 20th Arrondisements, and described them as "No-Go Zones". There are also Banlieus that are autonomously administrated.

The exaggerration is in calling them "No-Go Zones". Of course one can go to them. During the riots a few years ago, law enforcement did not go into these areas, and the riots only stopped when the rioters got tired of rioting.

We have similar situations in the US in the Bronx, South Side Chicago, Oakland, East L.A., and such. They are referred to as ghettos, and are typically economically deprived.

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Maybe by suing they are showing to Americans how willing they are to adopt American customs and make Americans feel more at home.
She'll need a squadron of Jewish lawyers to proceed with a lawsuit. But of course, she is not serious, and doing so will only shoot herself in the foot. it's just a publicity stunt. It does show that the beauty of free speech is that it can be contested.

Last edited by Phos; 22.01.2015 at 13:17.
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Old 22.01.2015, 13:01
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Are there not neighborhoods in the UK that is predominantly Muslim, have Sharia councils, and Sharia patrols?
Not really, no. Well, of course there are neighbourhoods that are predominantly Muslim. There are also areas that are predominantly Armenian, Jewish, Irish etc. There will always be leadership entities within any minority and you can call these sharia councils if you like. There will also always be criminals, however rare, and in your example, yes, sharia patrols could fit the bill. Lived in London, in areas with lots of Muslims my whole life and never seen or heard of a sharia patrol.
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Old 22.01.2015, 13:04
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Not really, no. Well, of course there are neighbourhoods that are predominantly Muslim. There are also areas that are predominantly Armenian, Jewish, Irish etc. There will always be leadership entities within any minority and you can call these sharia councils if you like. There will also always be criminals, however rare, and in your example, yes, sharia patrols could fit the bill. Lived in London, in areas with lots of Muslims my whole life and never seen or heard of a sharia patrol.
You say No, but then you say Yes. You may not have encountered them, but there are reports, and videos of such encounters. There are admissions of these. Liquor sales are strongly discouraged, and prostitutes threatened.

Now, not to be judgemental on the value of these. I do believe these can be positive efforts by communities to maintain the safety of their neighborhoods. I would agree with that, and how community engagement is good. But I believe these can also be susceptible to the influence of Islamist extremists. A question that arises is whether these help towards social cohesion and integration, or divide.

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Old 22.01.2015, 13:18
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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You say No, but then you say Yes. You may not have encountered them, but there reports, and videos of such encounters. There are admissions of these. Liquor sales are strongly discouraged, and prostitutes threatened.
I'm confident prostitutes are threatened by all segments of the population in every area in London. And I'm equally confident I can get a pint in every area of London. Including (and especially) a Lebanese restaurant in Edgware Road.

If you drive through Mea Shearim in Jerusalem on a Saturday you'll have stones thrown at your car. This has literally nothing to do with being Jewish but more than that, it's actually anti-correlated with the kind of intensely secular Jews that are characteristic of Israel.

So, are there 6 guys with bats walking around an East London council estate trying to make it into Little Riyadh? Maybe. But in the next council estate there are 6 guys with bats trying to make it into London's extension of Gotti territory or whatever. Ideology is irrelevant and only makes it into the news when it sounds like it fits with whatever narrative is popular this week.
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Old 22.01.2015, 13:25
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So, are there 6 guys with bats walking around an East London council estate trying to make it into Little Riyadh? Maybe. But in the next council estate there are 6 guys with bats trying to make it into London's extension of Gotti territory or whatever. Ideology is irrelevant and only makes it into the news when it sounds like it fits with whatever narrative is popular this week.
Agreed. But keep in mind that in the context of homegrown terrorism, finding its motivations, roots, origings and causes; this is germaine to the discussion. So admitting they exist, and submitting that they are no big deal is a valid assertion. Although denying the reality of them when they are there fails to convince, and smells like diversion. I think a better argument may be how these communities need more support towards integration and economic opportunities.

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Old 22.01.2015, 14:30
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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We have similar situations in the US in the Bronx, South Side Chicago, Oakland, East L.A., and such. They are referred to as ghettos, and are typically economically deprived.
The difference is that in these US examples, the gangs who enforce these no-go areas are not hiding behind any religion but justify their status purely by force and threat of force. Thes gangs are thus part of the problem, as they are interested in keeping their ghettoes down and undesirable so they can maintain their rule over them.

I am pretty sure the majority of average inhabitants of these ghettoes do not approve of the gangs but are silenced through real or perceived threats of violence. This is compounded through a general feeling of lethargy and that the police and authorities aren't really on their side and wouldn't genuinely help them if asked to do so. One of the drivers behind the Ferguson riots has been the perception that the police and justice system are racially biassed. But I don't think anbody there saw there actions as part of a holy war or anything, just a venting of anger.
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Old 22.01.2015, 14:34
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The difference is that in these US examples, the gangs who enforce these no-go areas are not hiding behind any religion but justify their status purely by force and threat of force.

I am pretty sure the majority of average inhabitants of these ghettoes do not approve of the gangs but are silenced through real or perceived threats of violence. This is compounded through a general feeling of lethargy and that the police and authorities aren't really on their side and wouldn't genuinely help them if asked to do so. One of the drivers behind the Ferguson riots has been the perception that the police and justice system are racially biassed. But I don't think anbody there saw there actions as part of a holy war or anything.
You know, in the early history of New York City, the Italian neighborhoods were pretty much neglected and ignored by the political establishment. They didn't get government services. So to maintain order, a community policing organization arose. It looked after its people, and sometimes administered justice. This became the Mafia.
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Old 22.01.2015, 14:43
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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You know, in the early history of New York City, the Italian neighborhoods were pretty much neglected and ignored by the political establishment. They didn't get government services. So to maintain order, a community policing organization arose. It looked after its people, and sometimes administered justice. This became the Mafia.
I'm alll for communities getting organized and doing things their way. In fact the libertarian streak in me says this is a wonderful thing as it shows we don't need to take recourse to the state for everything. But there is a difference between a community organization that is supported by the community and one that violently hammers any who disagree into submission.

Al Capone ran soup kitchens and kept streets safe by turning his guns on petty criminals. So was he doing good?
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Old 22.01.2015, 15:27
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Are there not neighborhoods in the UK that are predominantly Muslim, have Sharia councils, and Sharia patrols? Those.

In Paris, I recall a homosexual being severely beaten by such gangs claiming he was walking through a Muslim neighborhood. They have reportedly harassed pedestrians for being dressed "improperly" or couples holding hands. My Parissiene friends advised me to beware of these neighborhoods in the 19th and 20th Arrondisements, and described them as "No-Go Zones". There are also Banlieus that are autonomously administrated.

The exaggerration is in calling them "No-Go Zones". Of course one can go to them. During the riots a few years ago, law enforcement did not go into these areas, and the riots only stopped when the rioters got tired of rioting.

We have similar situations in the US in the Bronx, South Side Chicago, Oakland, East L.A., and such. They are referred to as ghettos, and are typically economically deprived.



She'll need a squadron of Jewish lawyers to proceed with a lawsuit. But of course, she is not serious, and doing so will only shoot herself in the foot. it's just a publicity stunt. It does show that the beauty of free speech is that it can be contested.
Again with these sharia councils and gangs and whatnot...I keep hearing they exist but in 25 year of living in a multitude of UK cities, including London, Birmingham, and Manchester, i never once saw any sign of them. They must be hiding from me. And whats a 'sharia council'? Do you mean an actual local endorsed government authority, or a bunch of old men sat around a table discussing things from one particular viewpoint? If its the former, then no, there isn't one despite what Fox might have told you. If its that latter then a)every minority group and majority group too, will have one and b) what does it matter?

If what you say about Paris is true, then surely it points to an ineffective Police force, rather then a defacto autonomous part of Paris. Your 'friend' should have told you that, rather then suggesting the muslamics have taken over.

And yes, Police usually do not go into an area when there's a riot there. You contain a riot, and allow it to fizzle out, you don't charge it down. No sensible police force in the world charges headfirst into a riot, no matter who is causing it or what its for.

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Not really, no. Well, of course there are neighbourhoods that are predominantly Muslim. There are also areas that are predominantly Armenian, Jewish, Irish etc. There will always be leadership entities within any minority and you can call these sharia councils if you like. There will also always be criminals, however rare, and in your example, yes, sharia patrols could fit the bill. Lived in London, in areas with lots of Muslims my whole life and never seen or heard of a sharia patrol.
I mirror that...Where are these sharia gangs roaming all the streets of London?


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You know, in the early history of New York City, the Italian neighborhoods were pretty much neglected and ignored by the political establishment. They didn't get government services. So to maintain order, a community policing organization arose. It looked after its people, and sometimes administered justice. This became the Mafia.

err...wrong. The mafia came to the US as the mafia, with the same crime families and modus operandi (protection racketeering, the black market, narcotics) that they enjoyed in Italy. The reason they thrived was not because ordinary Italian immigrants were going to them rather then the police (in reality, only powerful/influential people, or people from within the crime family itself could do that), but because the NYPD of the time didn't know how to deal with organised crime nor were they equipped to do so. The other reason was, of course, that the crime families were able to amass huge wealth very quickly (and therefore influence) due to bootlegging and the Prohibition.

History was not quite how it was portrayed in The Godfather, Phos.
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Old 22.01.2015, 15:43
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.... i never once saw any sign of them. They must be hiding from me.
Oh, because you haven't seen any sign of them, you can deny they exist for everybody once and for all. Clearly, the sociological factors are there. Clearly, some residents of these areas have been radicalized. Surely, polls of sentiments prove its impact. Certain events testify to it.

I'm not even going to bother posting links and such, as these are very well documented. But should you rather deny these, that is perfectly fine. But for those who discuss it.... I invoke Free Speech!
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Old 22.01.2015, 16:06
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Are there not neighborhoods in the UK that are predominantly Muslim, have Sharia councils, and Sharia patrols? Those.

In Paris, I recall a homosexual being severely beaten by such gangs claiming he was walking through a Muslim neighborhood. They have reportedly harassed pedestrians for being dressed "improperly" or couples holding hands. My Parissiene friends advised me to beware of these neighborhoods in the 19th and 20th Arrondisements, and described them as "No-Go Zones". There are also Banlieus that are autonomously administrated.
There are so many differences between Muslims in France and the UK that to even try and compare the two is an exercise in futility.

For a start most British Muslims hail from the Indian sub-continent and on the whole tend to be quite successful in terms of education, wealth, social status and even integration. You are not going to find that many Pakistanis or Bangladeshis on welfare, which is the opposite to France where there are far more North Africans living in Poverty.

Secondly unlike France, the Muslim population in the UK (especially London) is completely heterogeneous, and in many cases the only thing they have in common is their religion. However they think, act and speak in completely different languages and their positions on the social ladder couldn't be further apart e.g. Somalis v Gulf Arabs.
  • Bangladeshis (East London)
  • Pakistanis (Hounslow, Southall, Harrow etc..)
  • Gulf Arabs (NW London, West London, Central)
  • Moroccans/Algerians (Shepherd's Bush, Hammersmith etc..)
  • Turks (Harringay, Wood Green)
  • Somalis (Acton)
  • Nigerians/Ghanaians (Brixton, Streatham, Wandsworth)
  • Etc..

This is one of the reasons it is always so laughable when someone stands up and proclaims themselves to be a Muslim community leader, when what they actually mean is that they are a {insert nationality} Muslim community leader who may only be representing the views from a specific region in the UK (e.g. Bradford versus London).

So anyway trying to conflate all these different nationalities, regional differences and then compare them to a very different racial and socioeconomic population in France is at best pointless.
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Old 22.01.2015, 16:13
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Oh, because you haven't seen any sign of them, you can deny they exist for everybody once and for all. Clearly, the sociological factors are there. Clearly, some residents of these areas have been radicalized. Surely, polls of sentiments prove its impact. Certain events testify to it.

I'm not even going to bother posting links and such, as these are very well documented. But should you rather deny these, that is perfectly fine. But for those who discuss it.... I invoke Free Speech!
When they aren't where i'm told they supposedly are, and when i never see any actual evidence that they exist, i will invoke my right to think sensibly and say yes, i don't think they exist. Just like i don't think there are no-go zones in Birmingham.

But you're right, if one or two people from a poor area are radicalised, and a small number of people get harassed in the street (because that never happens to muslims, right?) then of course the only logical conclusion is masses of muslamic charia law enforcing gangs basically ruling an entire region.
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Old 22.01.2015, 16:27
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There are so many differences between Muslims in France and the UK that to even try and compare the two is an exercise in futility.
....
So anyway trying to conflate all these different nationalities, regional differences and then compare them to a very different racial and socioeconomic population in France is at best pointless.
Right, it is not an ethnic issue, is it? To this point, and as someone previously pointed out, many of the worse actions have been committed by those who are recent converts to Islam, criminals converted in Prison, not even brought up and cultivated in Muslim households, or simply found an opportunity to exact vengeance on Society through Islamist causes. It is more ideologically based, isn't it?

In the case of Britain, I can understand the Muslim Council of Britain's indignation over the Eric Pickles/Lord Ahmed letter. It seems to question Muslim commitment to British society. But it doesn't have to be taken as such. It read like an appeal for help in spotting nutjobs.

The French situation, I imagine, would be typically more twisty and complicated.
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Old 30.01.2015, 12:40
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité

The situation in France is special for a few reasons...

Muslims are 7.5 percent of the general population in France, and they are 60 percent of the prison population.

I suggest to watch this recording of a good open forum discussions at the WEF in Davos entitled
Religion: A Pretext for Conflict?
Speakers: Tony Blair, David Rosen, Hamza Yusuf Hanson, Mina Oraibi, Thabo Cecil Makgoba
http://www.weforum.org/sessions/summ...etext-conflict
Professor Hamza discusses the situation in France and makes some very good points; and shuts Tony Blair's misleading mouth...


The situation in France has nothing to do with defending free expression. Every country limits free speech. Some do so only to prevent immediate harms, such as libel, violence or child pornography: others ban “hate speech” or blasphemy.

Prosecutions for expression do not take place only under the “defending terrorism” law. This week the rapper Saïdou of the band Z.E.P. and the sociologist Saïd Bouamama will be indicted in Lille for “public insult” and “incitement to discrimination, hate, or violence.”

The prosecution was brought by a right-wing nationalist group, as MR Zine reports, because of Saïd’s book France and a Z.E.P. song with the same title.




Respect is a two way street. Not in France.
It may sound like an ironic joke, but it isn't.
Less than a week after the massive rallies in defense of “free expression,” following the murders of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists, French authorities have jailed a 16 year old for posting on Facebook a cartoon “representing a person holding the magazine Charlie Hebdo, being hit by bullets, and accompanied by an ‘ironic’ comment”. However this is an actual Charlie Hebdo print from July 2013 which caused outrage for mocking Egyptian protesters killed after the military coup. The text says “The Quran is shit. It doesn't stop bullets.”

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Old 30.01.2015, 15:58
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

additionally there is a big difference in depicting Muhammad in such a manner as to offend others and this carved depiction of the prophet Muhammad, center, in the courtroom of the U.S. Supreme Court building in Washington, D.C., which was built in the 1930s. especially when dealing with a warrior type culture where their religion drives the warrior in them...

Simply depicting Muhammad "has become such a sensitive issue because of the political context and as part of the perceived conflict between Islam and the Western world," said Silvia Naef, a professor of Arab studies at the University of Geneva. "Earlier, it wouldn't have been such a problem."

Full story: Muhammad's image at Supreme Court shows taboos aren't eternal http://www.stripes.com/news/us/muham...ernal-1.326245

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Old 30.01.2015, 16:32
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You say No, but then you say Yes. You may not have encountered them, but there are reports, and videos of such encounters. There are admissions of these. Liquor sales are strongly discouraged, and prostitutes threatened.

Now, not to be judgemental on the value of these. I do believe these can be positive efforts by communities to maintain the safety of their neighborhoods. I would agree with that, and how community engagement is good. But I believe these can also be susceptible to the influence of Islamist extremists. A question that arises is whether these help towards social cohesion and integration, or divide.
You've been watching Fox News again, haven't you???

Excellent post Castro. Where I lived for a very long time btw, there is another very well educated group that arrived in the early 70s- Ugandan Asians, thrown out by Idi Amin. Very successful business people, Judges, surgeons, doctors, lawyers, and more. They adjusted very quickly and have become VERY sucessful. First taking over and doing up part of the Edwardian workers areas of town, and gradually moving further out to the wealthier suburbs. They now own massive piles in the East of town, with gold painted fences and porticos with collonades and lots of posh cars
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Old 30.01.2015, 16:57
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You've been watching Fox News again, haven't you???
We don't get Fox news here. I sometimes read the Spectator online though. Don't tell me you're still trying to reinforce that momentary hipocrisy that such neighborhoods don't exist. It's been heavily documented.


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Simply depicting Muhammad "has become such a sensitive issue because of the political context and as part of the perceived conflict between Islam and the Western world," said Silvia Naef, a professor of Arab studies at the University of Geneva. "Earlier, it wouldn't have been such a problem."
There have been depictions of Muhammad in art. The ban on Muhammad imagery was to dissuade his followers from worshipping him as an idol. But you don't really need an image or sculpture for idol worship. In the case of recent cartoons, it is more about insulting Muhammad and the religion.

There is an Algerian author who recently wrote a book in which a character in the book rants and slams Islam. Extremists who have never read the book caught an excerpt of what the fictional character said, and is now calling for the author's head. I guess even fictional cartoons in fictional literature are also offensive.
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Old 30.01.2015, 19:58
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Don't tell me you're still trying to reinforce that momentary hipocrisy that such neighborhoods don't exist. It's been heavily documented.
Define "such". There are quite a few places in and around Paris I wouldn't go to. But the actual description incl. map of the fox news reporter is a joke. Another more accurate description of these places I wouldn't go to would not be a joke, though, and I in deed would not go there. Some people call me a coward for it but I am OK with that.
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Old 30.01.2015, 20:12
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We don't get Fox news here. I sometimes read the Spectator online though. Don't tell me you're still trying to reinforce that momentary hipocrisy that such neighborhoods don't exist. It's been heavily documented.
I have no idea where you are from, and where you have lived- and therefore what your experiences are. I lived in the UK for 39 years, about 35 of them in the most multicultural town of the UK. And there are no 'no-go' areas where I would not have happily gone walking in day time- and where the police would not go. There are a couple of estates where there are practically no Asians and/or Muslims where I would not go, actually, having said that- where the likes of the EDL and the NF live. As a teacher, they scared me witless too- whereas most of the Asian and/or Muslim children where polite, courteous and really keen to learn and to succeed- and excellent linguists due to being bi or tri-lingual from birth.

Very different to the situation in some French towns- where it seems there are no-go areas- although I have never experienced that myself.

The attitude of the French police, especially the CRS, is absolutely and totally different to that of UK police. UK police, on the whole (there are bad apples as everywhere) are taught to diffuse and not to barge in pressing all the wrong buttons and lead to big trouble- as so well said by J2488. They are trained in race relations and how to avoid escalation.

What's your agenda Phos- I am beginning to wonder?

BTW, converts to Islam are not all violent or Jihadists. I find it refreshing actually that some people would choose a religion by studying it carefully and coming to it themsleves- rather than being born and bred in it (some would say indoctrinated). And in many cities of the world, the Muslim areas are very peaceful and tolerant of others and visitors. Thinking about the town of Cape Town here, where the Cape Malay Muslim quarters are a delight. And where large numbers of our family live, all born from one of the first Converts to Islam and European Hadj.

Last edited by Odile; 30.01.2015 at 20:35.
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Old 31.01.2015, 20:44
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Respect is a two way street. Not in France.
It may sound like an ironic joke, but it isn't.
Less than a week after the massive rallies in defense of “free expression,” following the murders of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists, French authorities have jailed a 16 year old for posting on Facebook a cartoon “representing a person holding the magazine Charlie Hebdo, being hit by bullets, and accompanied by an ‘ironic’ comment”. However this is an actual Charlie Hebdo print from July 2013 which caused outrage for mocking Egyptian protesters killed after the military coup. The text says “The Quran is shit. It doesn't stop bullets.”
Does the original really mock Egyptians? To me the head cover is a Kippa (jewish head cover) and not a Takke (muslim head cover which covers much more of the skull).
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