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  #1361  
Old 31.01.2015, 21:45
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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BTW, converts to Islam are not all violent or Jihadists. I find it refreshing actually that some people would choose a religion by studying it carefully and coming to it themsleves- rather than being born and bred in it (some would say indoctrinated). And in many cities of the world, the Muslim areas are very peaceful and tolerant of others and visitors. Thinking about the town of Cape Town here, where the Cape Malay Muslim quarters are a delight. And where large numbers of our family live, all born from one of the first Converts to Islam and European Hadj.
Western converts to Islam almost invariably fit a certain personality and social profile. it is even worse in central Europe, frankly, where they tend to be little more than your typical white, bored and disaffected kid looking for an outlet for their misguided angst. when I hear some white kid from Switzerland bitch that his getting called names for choosing to wear a thobe on Bahnhofstrasse is the same as the racism experienced by the black community in America or elsewhere, it makes me want to puke.

I am sure, by the way, that there are some truly enlightened, intelligent and delightful people who choose to convert to Islam, I am simply having a hard time finding them. which is not meant solely with respect to Islam, of course, since I likewise have a hard time finding truly enlightened, intelligent and delightful Southern Baptists.

EDIT: I should have been clear that in no way do I think that being unenlightened or unintelligent is the same thing as being violent or jihadist. in fact, violence is more often than not initiated by some of the most enlightened and intelligent people around.


Last edited by crazygringo; 31.01.2015 at 21:56.
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  #1362  
Old 01.02.2015, 11:31
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Well, the more I think about it, and the more I am not Charlie. I thought it was indeed 'bête et méchant- as it claimed in its earlier days.

If you are going to 'attack' a faith and a Church, or anything else for that matter- do it properly, with good arguments- not silly insulting pictures. Like Stephen Fry:

http://youtu.be/I6sz8D411kE

Last edited by Odile; 01.02.2015 at 12:08.
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  #1363  
Old 01.02.2015, 12:00
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Well, the more I think about it, and the more I am not Charlie. I thought it was indeed 'bête et méchant- as it claimed in its earlier days.

If you are going to 'attack' a faith and a Church, do it properly, with good arguments- not silly insulting pictures. Like Stephen Fry:

http://youtu.be/I6sz8D411kE
"Silly and insulting pictures" are an effective way of mocking things we disagree with, they have been used in journalism since medieval times and were able to deliver a clear message to people regardless of their level of literacy. Long may they continue.
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  #1364  
Old 01.02.2015, 12:09
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

There is no blasphemy law in France, so there is no blasphemy full stop. Being insulted by people thinking differently is part of normal life in a democracy. Most of what Blocher ever did is insulting to me, but I don't mind him being alive or even keeping his day job. I also find the anti German nazi based hate in Greece very insulting but I still wish the Greeks to be free and decide for themselves even if I don't get it.
There is no doubt that Charlie Hebdo is not nice to people they fight against, that's the definition of a fight. Same applies to Thatcher not being nice to the unions. The issue is not what people do but on what ground do the people feeling insulted react.
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  #1365  
Old 01.02.2015, 12:13
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

I agree that Charlie Hebdo had the absolute right to do, draw and say what they did- all I am saying, is that there are better and more convincing ways of being extremely critical of anything. 'Bête et méchant' is not, imho, the best way.
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  #1366  
Old 01.02.2015, 12:27
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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there are better and more convincing ways of being extremely critical of anything.
The one does not exclude the other, indeed. No doubt you personaly condamn the crime. It is important however not to let people with less moral dignity than you find excuses for the killers. We agree.
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  #1367  
Old 01.02.2015, 12:32
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

Absolutely- I just find Fry's, or even Private Eye's style so much more convincing, that is all. As Voltaire said...


And totally disagrees with those, around me, who say Charlie asked for it and deserved their fate- which is totally abhorrent.
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  #1368  
Old 01.02.2015, 12:33
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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I agree that Charlie Hebdo had the absolute right to do, draw and say what they did- all I am saying, is that there are better and more convincing ways of being extremely critical of anything. 'Bête et méchant' is not, imho, the best way.
It may not be the "best", but it certainly seems to be more effective in getting the message across than most other methods I can think of, including eloquent speeches, which are ultimately forgotten within 2 minutes if being finished.
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  #1369  
Old 01.02.2015, 14:00
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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And totally disagrees with those, around me, who say Charlie asked for it
Yes, but they did, quite literally, ask for it. Repeatedly, in the full and complete knowledge of what the consequences would be.

Much as I think the Charlie Hebdo crowd were a bunch of foolish, irresponsible dickheads, I've a lot more respect for them than I have for that smarmy toad in the video, picking on easy targets from his position of untouchable privilege and comfort.

At least the video has encouraged me to be a better person from now on, for fear of spending eternity in Hell with Stephen Fry.
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  #1370  
Old 01.02.2015, 14:18
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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in no way do I think that being unenlightened or unintelligent is the same thing as being violent or jihadist. in fact, violence is more often than not initiated by some of the most enlightened and intelligent people around.
I'm glad you've clarified this. It's one of the things that makes me chuckle whenever people accuse me of being politically correct for defending ordinary Muslims from some of the idiotic islamophobic tripe that gets thrown at them (hey, I defend my mates - doesn't everyone? OK, maybe not Bernadette Cumberland any more, but, well...).

Anyway, I've known a lot of Muslims in my time, and spent many happy years living in predominantly Muslim areas (happy because of the easy, round the clock availability of curry and kebabs - nothing to do with "vibrant diversity" and all that bollocks). I've never once seen or heard of a no-go zone - on the contrary, when I was living in Manchester, the Muslim district was positively heavenly compared to some of the districts nearby. I have, however, met an awful lot of profoundly stupid, ill-educated and bigoted Muslims. Lots of them, from all kinds of places - British Muslims, Libyan Muslims, Pakistani Muslims, Bangladeshi Muslims, Syrian Muslims, Turkish Muslims... Some of the crap I've heard would make your toes curl. But I doubt any of them is an active supporter of jihad. Sure, a fair number of them probably wouldn't mind seeing an Islamic state set up in Birmingham or Manchester, but they're likely to put as much effort into that as I might put into setting up a British colony in Glarnerland. They've got jobs and families and wallpapering and phone bills and washing up to worry about first.

Likewise, I've known plenty of Irish-descended Brits and Americans who want to see Ireland united. Does that make them IRA supporters? Well, maybe, in the loosest sense possible. Hardly a crime, though, is it? We've all got a right to pipe dreams and stupid thinking.

It's really important, in the context of Islamic extremism, to separate "being a criminal" from simply "being an idiot". I'll defend the latter as long as I can be bothered. The former, on the other hand, can all go hang in Jordanian prisons.

It might be a nice distinction for some of our more bombastic members, but it's a distinction upon which our entire culture is built. Sort of. When it suits.

Here's to the idiots amongst us!
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  #1371  
Old 01.02.2015, 22:31
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

There is a wide spectrum between being an active, decapitating Jihadi (quite a few of those with UK accent) and a passive idiot.
How many of the "passives" provide funds, safe houses or simply look the other way?
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Old 01.02.2015, 23:12
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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There is a wide spectrum between being an active, decapitating Jihadi (quite a few of those with UK accent) and a passive idiot.
How many of the "passives" provide funds, safe houses or simply look the other way?
Dunno. But that sounds suspiciously like the excuse some people use to justify beating up British and French Jews.
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  #1373  
Old 01.02.2015, 23:18
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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At least the video has encouraged me to be a better person from now on, for fear of spending eternity in Hell with Stephen Fry.
PHHHHEEEEEEWWWWW (for both of us )

Fry and Dawkins, can't wait.

Bombastic, now THIS is funny.

Last edited by Odile; 02.02.2015 at 14:08.
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  #1374  
Old 02.02.2015, 10:27
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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PHHHHEEEEEEWWWWW (for both of us )

Fry and Dawkins, can't wait.

Bombastic, not THIS is funny.
How's the head this morning?
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  #1375  
Old 02.02.2015, 11:20
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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There is a wide spectrum between being an active, decapitating Jihadi (quite a few of those with UK accent) and a passive idiot.
How many of the "passives" provide funds, safe houses or simply look the other way?
I don't think providing funds or safe houses to terrorists is "passive".



if being a passive idiot and looking the other way is a crime, then we are all surrounded by criminals of all varieties.
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  #1376  
Old 02.02.2015, 11:57
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Dunno. But that sounds suspiciously like the excuse some people use to justify beating up British and French Jews.
The terrorists don't operate in a vacuum. They need support from the larger population, which you labeled as "Passive".

Your own experience shows that there is such support from "stupid, ill-educated" people. These are usually the people who attack Jews and then move on to other "targets".

This is a problem that the Muslim community, in Europe and the world, needs to fix.

I've been involved with meetings and cross-visits between Muslims and Jews - on many occasions people told me that if they dare to express opinions which are positive about Israel/ Jews they will face threats and violence.
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  #1377  
Old 02.02.2015, 12:20
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Yes, but they did, quite literally, ask for it. Repeatedly, in the full and complete knowledge of what the consequences would be.

Much as I think the Charlie Hebdo crowd were a bunch of foolish, irresponsible dickheads, I've a lot more respect for them than I have for that smarmy toad in the video, picking on easy targets from his position of untouchable privilege and comfort.

At least the video has encouraged me to be a better person from now on, for fear of spending eternity in Hell with Stephen Fry.
They didn't ask for it, DB. They took the risks. It's hard to believe there are still people like that isn't it..But hey ho, they're French.

Btw, it's not only you. I saw the same reactions from some journalists/intellectuals from back home, but I wasn't surprised. More like ashamed.
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  #1378  
Old 02.02.2015, 12:26
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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They didn't ask for it, DB. They took the risks. It's hard to believe there are still people like that isn't it..But hey ho, they're French.
Isn't this just semantics? Their offices were fire bombed 2011, their editor was under 24 hr armed guard and the French government had repeatedly asked them to tone it down because it was putting French lives at risk overseas. Of course you should never give in to Islamofascists, but at the same time pragmatism when its more than just your life at risk is a much higher ideal IMHO.
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Old 02.02.2015, 13:05
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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They didn't ask for it, DB. They took the risks.

Here's a fun experiment for you. Find a male friend. Ask him to go into the nearest biker bar (or whatever the local equivalent is) and walk up to the biggest, hairiest bastard in there. Tell your friend to inform the big, hairy bastard that his mother is a whore. Watch what happens.


This phenomenon is called "asking for it". It's entertaining to watch when only the person who asks for it gets what's coming to them. Less entertaining when it's innocent coppers and people buying bagels who get it too.
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  #1380  
Old 02.02.2015, 13:33
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Here's a fun experiment for you. Find a male friend. Ask him to go into the nearest biker bar (or whatever the local equivalent is) and walk up to the biggest, hairiest bastard in there. Tell your friend to inform the big, hairy bastard that his mother is a whore. Watch what happens.


This phenomenon is called "asking for it". It's entertaining to watch when only the person who asks for it gets what's coming to them. Less entertaining when it's innocent coppers and people buying bagels who get it too.
Wrong comparison, correct one should be:
1.DB is in Switzerland talking about bikers belief that driving loud bikes late at night makes them smarter.
2. A biker in Chile hears about it.
3. Bikers all over the world get angry, riot and kill.

couldn't DB simply keep quiet ?
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