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  #121  
Old 08.01.2015, 10:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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  #122  
Old 08.01.2015, 10:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Yes, they were primarily poking fun at Islamic extremists. My French isn't great either, but it's clear from the pictures...
Sorry, but it really is not clear to me that the Muslims portrayed in those cartoons are extremists. Again, I do not speak or understand French, so of course I am only capable of trying to understand the cartoons via the images alone (which may be impossible). In the second one, I see a Muslim woman that apparently just gave birth, while Jesus and Mary stand by, watching in horror -- apparently at the thought of another Muslim being brought into the world. But in what way should it be evident in the image (alone) that the Muslim woman is in extremist?

Regardless... even if the Muslims portrayed in those cartoons are NOT extremists, the magazine obviously has every right to exercise its freedom of speech and to poke fun at religion in general. I myself am an agnostic and sometimes struggle with my own cynicism toward religion (especially Christianity, since I had been born into a culture in which that ideology was practically "forced down my throat"). But, at the same time, I think that because much of my philos. studies revolved around comparative religion and the evolution of religious belief, I guess there's also a big part of me that thinks the world would be in a better state if more people were tolerant of religions that they themselves do not adhere to and did not go out of their way to attack the belief systems of others and what those people hold sacred.

I guess that most of us hold our freedom of speech as being something sacred, but I think we also need to realize and respect the fact that there are a lot of people in the world who hold their religion as being something sacred. I can pretty much guarantee that if any of us had been born into an Islamic country, then we too would be a Muslim. Cultural "brainwashing" is, unfortunately, not so easy to transcend, and it's something that I think often manifests itself in ways that we are not even aware of.

Again, I do not think that this massacre was in any way justified (at least not to a rational mind), but I do think that if you're going to go out of your way to repeatedly mock an ideology such as Islamic extremism that has been proven to use violence as a means to defend itself -- and to do it via such a medium that reaches a very large audience -- then I think you need to be well aware of the potential consequences, regardless of whether they are "right" or "wrong." It appears that the magazine was well aware of the potential consequences. It's just, indeed, very very sad that those potential consequences were eventually materialized.
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  #123  
Old 08.01.2015, 10:47
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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They've tried fighting back, but have you ever seen a homeopathic petrol bomb?
But don't you know that if you dilute the petrol sufficiently it becomes a very effective joke?
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  #124  
Old 08.01.2015, 10:50
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

For all those who are claiming jokes don't kill ...

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  #125  
Old 08.01.2015, 10:53
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Sorry, but it really is not clear to me that the Muslims portrayed in those cartoons are extremists. Again, I do not speak or understand French, so of course I am only capable of trying to understand the cartoons via the images alone (which may be impossible). In the second one, I see a Muslim woman that apparently just gave birth, while Jesus and Mary stand by, watching in horror -- apparently at the thought of another Muslim being brought into the world. But in what way should it be evident in the image (alone) that the Muslim woman is in extremist?

Regardless... even if the Muslims portrayed in those cartoons are NOT extremists, the magazine obviously has every right to exercise its freedom of speech and to poke fun at religion in general. I myself am an agnostic and sometimes struggle with my own cynicism toward religion (especially Christianity, since I had been born into a culture in which that ideology was practically "forced down my throat"). But, at the same time, I think that because much of my philos. studies revolved around comparative religion and the evolution of religious belief, I guess there's also a big part of me that thinks the world would be in a better state if more people were tolerant of religions that they themselves do not adhere to and did not go out of their way to attack the belief systems of others and what those people hold sacred.

I guess that most of us hold our freedom of speech as being something sacred, but I think we also need to realize and respect the fact that there are a lot of people in the world who hold their religion as being something sacred. I can pretty much guarantee that if any of us had been born into an Islamic country, then we too would be a Muslim. Cultural "brainwashing" is, unfortunately, not so easy to transcend, and it's something that I think often manifests itself in ways that we are not even aware of.

Again, I do not think that this massacre was in any way justified (at least not to a rational mind), but I do think that if you're going to go out of your way to repeatedly mock an ideology such as Islamic extremism that has been proven to use violence as a means to defend itself -- and to do it via such a medium that reaches a very large audience -- then I think you need to be well aware of the potential consequences, regardless of whether they are "right" or "wrong." It appears that the magazine was well aware of the potential consequences. It's just, indeed, very very sad that those potential consequences were eventually materialized.
Please don't mention your studies anymore...and I say it in a friendly way.
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  #126  
Old 08.01.2015, 10:57
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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In the second one, I see a Muslim woman that apparently just gave birth, while Jesus and Mary stand by, watching in horror -- apparently at the thought of another Muslim being brought into the world. But in what way should it be evident in the image (alone) that the Muslim woman is in extremist?
You stay you studied comparative religions, and yet you are unable to identify the situation depicted in that caricature? Honestly? Or are you trolling us?
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  #127  
Old 08.01.2015, 11:09
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I was listening to an interview yesterday night on the BBC with Christian Makarian, deputy editor of French news magazine, L' Express. What he said struck me as particularly interesting.

In his opinion the overwhelming majority of North African Muslims in France are firmly republican, they understand and respect French laws and traditions and are fully engaged in society.

Then there are those who are on the more conservative side, who again are law abiding, but regard the more libertarian aspects of French culture with disdain. Never the less its home and as long as they have freedom to practice their faith, dress as they please etc.. they are happy.

Finally there is a group of disaffected, fragile minded individuals who don't belong in either group. They are shunned by wider French society and are also alienated in their own communities as many become involved in petty crime, domestic violence, drugs, alcohol etc... If they do turn up to the mosque, its usually with hot headed ideas of violence and more often than not they're politely turned away by the local imam who doesn't want trouble amongst his flock. So they then go onto the web and thats where they become ensnared in global Jihadist agendas. However as these guys don't have the maturity, knowledge (most don't read or write Arabic) its not long before they are turned by people or ideas 000's of miles away from their realities.

The solution offered by Makarian is two-fold. Gain the trust of the communities so that they become the eyes and ears of the security services.. and the second, much more difficult solution is to have better outreach services to disaffected North African youth. In my mind its admitting that you have a problem with racism, and that the only way to make them feel French is to treat them like they are French, and not undesirables banished to the banlieues to rot on welfare.
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  #128  
Old 08.01.2015, 11:10
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Just heard on BBC radio 10.00 news that there has been another shooting in a Metro station, involving 2 people, one a policeman.

No other details, and I believe no fatalities.
No connection with yesterday's shooting confirmed or denied.

Nothing on their news page, yet, either.
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  #129  
Old 08.01.2015, 11:20
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Please don't mention your studies anymore...and I say it in a friendly way.
Deal. But that's a rather ironic request, considering how much the value of the freedom of speech has been expressed here.

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You stay you studied comparative religions, and yet you are unable to identify the situation depicted in that caricature? Honestly? Or are you trolling us?
Sorry, I see now that it is most likely baby Jesus depicted as being born there. One of the few French words that I do understand is "petit." I asked my husband to take a glance at it as well, and he also thought it was the same thing as I originally did.

I further apologize for breaking the enforced rules and further mentioning my studies... but I will say that deciphering French satirical cartoons was never part of them.

All I ask is to please not twist my statements here. I am not accusing that magazine or its employees of having deserved this atrocity. I am simply pointing out that perhaps it should not be so surprising that it occurred.
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  #130  
Old 08.01.2015, 11:21
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The solution offered by Makarian is two-fold. Gain the trust of the communities so that they become the eyes and ears of the security services.. and the second, much more difficult solution is to have better outreach services to disaffected North African youth. In my mind its admitting that you have a problem with racism, and that the only way to make them feel French is to treat them like they are French, and not undesirables banished to the banlieues to rot on welfare.
I think its also the "angry young men" phenomenon. We all go through a rebellious phase where we think we need to fix the world's problems by applying radical measures. And then as the hormones settle down and we get jobs, family, mortgages and responsibility we largely forget about our earlier intentions and end up denying we ever thought that way. I don't think it is particularly restricted to any racial group. But it can be mitigated by positive role models, by teachers and other persons of authority or respect (including imams, or sports coaches, or whoever) who listen, understand, discuss and take yoofs seriously and encourage them to apply their energy in a positive way.
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  #131  
Old 08.01.2015, 11:46
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I guess that most of us hold our freedom of speech as being something sacred, but I think we also need to realize and respect the fact that there are a lot of people in the world who hold their religion as being something sacred. I can pretty much guarantee that if any of us had been born into an Islamic country, then we too would be a Muslim. Cultural "brainwashing" is, unfortunately, not so easy to transcend, and it's something that I think often manifests itself in ways that we are not even aware of.
I believe only Saudi Arabia requires that their citizens be Muslims.

Which countries were you thinking about when you wrote that?
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  #132  
Old 08.01.2015, 11:52
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

the big question is where the hell did these guys get there weapons from?? not exactly easy to get hold of, and france isn't near any country that allows these weapons to the general public, if they came from eastern europe then they managed to drive (?) them across a few boarders without being challenged ??? which I find odd as they would normally set off every "dodgy bastard" alarm going
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  #133  
Old 08.01.2015, 11:56
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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the big question is where the hell did these guys get there weapons from?? not exactly easy to get hold of, and france isn't near any country that allows these weapons to the general public, if they came from eastern europe then they managed to drive (?) them across a few boarders without being challenged ??? which I find odd as they would normally set off every "dodgy bastard" alarm going
By ship or small boat to Marseilles (from North Africa which isn't very far).
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  #134  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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By ship or small boat to Marseilles (from North Africa which isn't very far).
Or purchased them on the black market, everything has its price.
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  #135  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:16
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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they managed to drive (?) them across a few boarders without being challenged
I try to avoid driving over boarders when I can as those kids tend to have rich parents who could sue me.
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  #136  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:24
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Or purchased them on the black market, everything has its price.
There are lots of AK-47s in Marseille:

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300: The number of Kalashnikovs reportedly intercepted in Marseille this year.
From here
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  #137  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:25
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I believe only Saudi Arabia requires that their citizens be Muslims.

Which countries were you thinking about when you wrote that?
It's not a question of requirement. It's where you're born and brought up that governs what religion you start life with.

But if you must have other countries: Turkey 99.8% Muslim despite being an official secular state, France predominately Catholic despite being a secular state, UK predominately Anglican, US predominately Protestant, the list goes on. So yes, if you're born into a country where Islam is the dominant religion you're quite likely to be a Muslim.
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  #138  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:27
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Just heard on BBC radio 10.00 news that there has been another shooting in a Metro station, involving 2 people, one a policeman.

No other details, and I believe no fatalities.
No connection with yesterday's shooting confirmed or denied.

Nothing on their news page, yet, either.
Police woman has died from gun shot wounds in the last hour or so.
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  #139  
Old 08.01.2015, 12:29
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

For those who read French, here is an interesting take on the US and British reactions from a French perspective.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2015/0...-se-ravise.php

The comments section also has some posts worth noting.
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Old 08.01.2015, 12:38
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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It's not a question of requirement. It's where you're born and brought up that governs what religion you start life with.

But if you must have other countries: Turkey 99.8% Muslim despite being an official secular state, France predominately Catholic despite being a secular state, UK predominately Anglican, US predominately Protestant, the list goes on. So yes, if you're born into a country where Islam is the dominant religion you're quite likely to be a Muslim.
Pancakes was offering a guarantee.
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