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Old 29.10.2020, 16:29
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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They might just steal your car, go for a joyride and trash it instead
Of course, that's a real concern in the violent suburbs of Aarau

Also, at what age one starts to be scared of the kids instead of chatting, drinking and smoking with them? Provided they're not bored to death by the older guy.
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Old 29.10.2020, 16:41
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Certainly not by avoiding mention of the light green elephant in the room. If I was deluded enough, I would have proposed “my grand solution” in the initial riposte to your appeasement strategy. Remember, we agreed, things will get worse.

You never came back at which percentage of a country’s population appeasement of Muslim sentiments was a given. IMHO at a certain point, Islamist barbarianism in Europe will finally trigger local reactions. Christian fundamentalists - or the rise of the right. Would you prefer to live under Sharia law or perhaps a “benevolent” fascist dictatorship is more to your taste?

I do concede that Muslims might luck out – after all, the climate debate is currently overshadowed by the corona crisis, and who knows – the Back Street Boys might make up and go on tour again!
Sorry if I didn't come back on a point, but I think that your posts are written in a rather obscure and overly complex way that's really not so easy to get the gist of. I still don't fully understand your question in the second paragraph and its context in relation to the meaning of what I wrote in my post.
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Old 29.10.2020, 16:55
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

The situation in France has always been historically different. Partly because of the principle of 'Laïcité/secularity' which followed the Revolution, partly because of the very recent (to me) war of Algeria. Both have resulted in North African Muslims in France, even now 2nd, 3rd or evern 4th generation Muslims- even those who do not wear any traditional clothes, etc- encountering daily discrimination, insults, rejection, of every kind- day in, day out, and massive unemployment.



Building huge resentment and making some young people, especially young men- very easy to target by extremist groups.



Does anyone remember the film 'La Haine'?


Charlie Hebdo poured petrol over the flames, and are doing it again- and a large part of the Islamophobic population is helping carry the can- and doing it again. A very dangerous situation.


There is a massive difference between 'appeasement' and deliberate fanning of the flames. And I am not in any way shape or form, excusing those heinous crimes committed by a few mad men. They carry in their pockets a copy of a postcard sent by French soldiers during the Algerian war- of Arad heads severed and lined up on a stone wall- to encourage them. The Algerian war was recent enough for their fathers to have been involved.


The situation in France is unique totally different to the UK.
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  #1544  
Old 29.10.2020, 17:06
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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The situation in France has always been historically different. Partly because of the principle of 'Laïcité/secularity' which followed the Revolution, partly because of the very recent (to me) war of Algeria. Both have resulted in North African Muslims in France, even now 2nd, 3rd or evern 4th generation Muslims- even those who do not wear any traditional clothes, etc- encountering daily discrimination, insults, rejection, of every kind- day in, day out, and massive unemployment.

Building huge resentment and making some young people, especially young men- very easy to target by extremist groups.

Does anyone remember the film 'La Haine'?

Charlie Hebdo poured petrol over the flames, and are doing it again- and a large part of the Islamophobic population is helping carry the can- and doing it again. A very dangerous situation.

There is a massive difference between 'appeasement' and deliberate fanning of the flames. And I am not in any way shape or form, excusing those heinous crimes committed by a few mad men. They carry in their pockets a copy of a postcard sent by French soldiers during the Algerian war- of Arad heads severed and lined up on a stone wall- to encourage them. The Algerian war was recent enough for their fathers to have been involved.
The one who chopped the teachers head off was a refugee from Chechnya. It had nothing to do with the Algerian war
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  #1545  
Old 29.10.2020, 17:09
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

Islamophobia is part of it.
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Old 29.10.2020, 18:01
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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Charlie Hebdo poured petrol over the flames, and are doing it again- and a large part of the Islamophobic population is helping carry the can- and doing it again. A very dangerous situation.
Yes, you are right about them pouring petrol over flames. But this is what they are doing intentionally to expose the lack of tolerance within Islam itself. The historical reasons why Christian Europe evolved towards tolerance are irrelevant here specifically, but it did happen. Islam has an embedded inability to differentiate between religion, culture, law and nationality. All those things get entangled into one thing and one is a Muslim first and everything else is secondary to the point of being irrelevant.

This makes any attempt to discuss and compromise virtually impossible as it's perceived as an identity loss. I am very pessimistic about the prospects of a peaceful multicultural society. Its never really worked and there are no reasons to believe it will.

The few historical cases that are usually brought up (Ottoman Empire in certain periods and certain regions and Al Andalus) are actually pointing in the opposite direction: tolerance is given by the powerful as a right of others to co-exist, but was never a sign of acceptance and equality.
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Old 29.10.2020, 18:16
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings

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Sorry if I didn't come back on a point, but I think that your posts are written in a rather obscure and overly complex way that's really not so easy to get the gist of. I still don't fully understand your question in the second paragraph and its context in relation to the meaning of what I wrote in my post.
Apologize for obscure and overly complex posts. Unintentional. While the hyperbolic choice between Sharia or fascist dictatorship doesn’t seem to move you, I’m a bit disappointed that not even a reunion of the Back Street Boys elicits any response of dread.

My take: appeasement = bad/makes things worse. Solution: Muslims have to avoid being (violently) offended by people whose job it is to get their goat. If they can’t, they should return to a protected space which ensures their relevant well-being.

Personally, I do not necessarily approve of IMO badly executed caricatures which inflame religiously minded people. Also, I probably would hesitate to kill people who don’t share my sense of humour. I certainly don’t agree that taking personal offence (religious or otherwise), justifies murder. Pretty simple, actually.
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Old 29.10.2020, 18:33
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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Yes, you are right about them pouring petrol over flames. But this is what they are doing intentionally to expose the lack of tolerance within Islam itself. The historical reasons why Christian Europe evolved towards tolerance are irrelevant here specifically, but it did happen. Islam has an embedded inability to differentiate between religion, culture, law and nationality. All those things get entangled into one thing and one is a Muslim first and everything else is secondary to the point of being irrelevant.

This makes any attempt to discuss and compromise virtually impossible as it's perceived as an identity loss. I am very pessimistic about the prospects of a peaceful multicultural society. Its never really worked and there are no reasons to believe it will.

The few historical cases that are usually brought up (Ottoman Empire in certain periods and certain regions and Al Andalus) are actually pointing in the opposite direction: tolerance is given by the powerful as a right of others to co-exist, but was never a sign of acceptance and equality.
I have worked with and am friends with a number of North African professionals who left France because of systemic racism and discrimination within the French pharma industry (I won't name names but it shocked me). None of these people were overtly religious, but their names and faces just didn't fit upper management so to break the glass ceiling they had to leave.

I also used to know a French Moroccan lady who graduated the top 10% of her class in business. She was the only one of her cohort who by the end of the year couldn't land a job despite dozens of applications and glowing references. Too ashamed to return to her family in Lyon she resorted to being a chambermaid at a Paris hotel until her prayers were answered.... an offer from a multi-national bank in London. She's been in the UK for over 16 years and has never looked back. These are just the highly qualified professionals, forget about the tens of thousands of people ghettoized in sprawling concrete banlieues outside Paris.

Contextualising something is not the same as excusing it.
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  #1549  
Old 29.10.2020, 18:36
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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The situation in France is unique totally different to the UK.
Different countries, different excuses.
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Old 29.10.2020, 18:43
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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Islam has an embedded inability to differentiate between religion, culture, law and nationality. All those things get entangled into one thing and one is a Muslim first and everything else is secondary to the point of being irrelevant.

This makes any attempt to discuss and compromise virtually impossible as it's perceived as an identity loss.
What you describe relates to hard-core fundamentalist Moslem extremists.

I don't experience what you describe amongst any of the Moslems I know, and nor to they, in their own circles. In fact, they, too, are horrified by the extremists. Those I know abhorr the violence of the few fringe deeply fundamentalist Moslems they've met or, more usually, seen only on TV, or heard whisperings about.

The men and women I know, who happen to be Moslems, live in or come from (or their parents or grandparents came from) at least 9 countries. Not one of them would regard their religion (which they practice to varying degrees, from deeply devout to not at all) as coming first and foremost before anything else. In fact, they're quite a mixed bunch, but what they have in common is a basic decency and generosity, an old-fashioned sort of honour or sense of good manners and responsibility, partly because it's the way they've been brought up, and partly because of some deep belief, or a mere vestage a belief formerly held by their parents, that they have a duty before Allah to treat each human with respect.

I've found them very willing to explain aspects of their beliefs or ethical system to me, and open to hear about traditions or beliefs of mine or of other non-Moslems we've known in common.

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I am very pessimistic about the prospects of a peaceful multicultural society. Its never really worked and there are no reasons to believe it will.
I find that sad. It is already the way I, and those around me, live.

Last edited by doropfiz; 29.10.2020 at 20:51.
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  #1551  
Old 29.10.2020, 18:49
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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I have worked with and am friends with a number of North African professionals who left France because of systemic racism and discrimination within the French pharma industry (I won't name names but it shocked me). None of these people were overtly religious, but their names and faces just didn't fit upper management so to break the glass ceiling they had to leave.

I also used to know a French Moroccan lady who graduated the top 10% of her class in business. She was the only one of her cohort who by the end of the year couldn't land a job despite dozens of applications and glowing references. Too ashamed to return to her family in Lyon she resorted to being a chambermaid at a Paris hotel until her prayers were answered.... an offer from a multi-national bank in London. She's been in the UK for over 16 years and has never looked back. These are just the highly qualified professionals, forget about the tens of thousands of people ghettoized in sprawling concrete banlieues outside Paris.

Contextualising something is not the same as excusing it.
Strange that none of the other minorities in France (including non-Muslim North Africans) are cutting people's heads off or blowing people up regularly.
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Old 29.10.2020, 19:11
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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Strange that none of the other minorities in France (including non-Muslim North Africans) are cutting people's heads off or blowing people up regularly.
What have the people I mentioned got to do with terrorism? Their protest was to leave France to make a new life in a place were they were made to feel welcome and valued.
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Old 29.10.2020, 19:19
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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Contextualising something is not the same as excusing it.
Oh, you misunderstood me! Europe is by and large still a racist and homophobic place, no question. I feel equally threatened by white supremacists, if not even more, than islamic fundamentalists. Sadly, in a way it proves my point: antagonism is on both sides and it's inherent in human nature that we belong to teams and the other team is to be defeated. Biology. What's the solution? I have no clue.

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I find that sad. It is already the way I, and those around me, live.
Makes me sad too. I grew up in such a community and unfortunately, I know what I am talking about.
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Old 29.10.2020, 19:27
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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I have worked with and am friends with a number of North African professionals who left France because of systemic racism and discrimination within the French pharma industry (I won't name names but it shocked me). None of these people were overtly religious, but their names and faces just didn't fit upper management so to break the glass ceiling they had to leave.

I also used to know a French Moroccan lady who graduated the top 10% of her class in business. She was the only one of her cohort who by the end of the year couldn't land a job despite dozens of applications and glowing references. Too ashamed to return to her family in Lyon she resorted to being a chambermaid at a Paris hotel until her prayers were answered.... an offer from a multi-national bank in London. She's been in the UK for over 16 years and has never looked back. These are just the highly qualified professionals, forget about the tens of thousands of people ghettoized in sprawling concrete banlieues outside Paris.

Contextualising something is not the same as excusing it.
I worked once with a highly qualified professional from Morocco who might have suffered this. The problem is he also became a discriminator, more than once pointed several times in a meeting at my different and bad accent in French......as I imagine a lot of people done to him in the past. In later interactions I found he was hell to people in his team. So a victim that acts as aggressor profiting from his little position of group leader, hard to be empathic with someone like this.

I think this is a big problem with people that has faced systemic racism and discrimination, it becomes a part of them and perpetuate the problem.
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Old 29.10.2020, 19:31
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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Oh, you misunderstood me! Europe is by and large still a racist and homophobic place, no question. I feel equally threatened by white supremacists, if not even more, than islamic fundamentalists. Sadly, in a way it proves my point: antagonism is on both sides and it's inherent in human nature that we belong to teams and the other team is to be defeated. Biology. What's the solution? I have no clue.
One problem is that anti-racism groups work tirelessly in the background but get very little exposure or support from politicians because it just isn't a vote winner. Then the moment something like this dastardly crime happens the media spotlight is upon them only for people to sneeringly say, stop excusing terrorism with your bleeding heart liberalism, and attitudes harden further. Its a very vicious cycle.
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Old 29.10.2020, 19:41
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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I worked once with a highly qualified professional from Morocco who might have suffered this. The problem is he also became a discriminator, more than once pointed several times in a meeting at my different and bad accent in French......as I imagine a lot of people done to him in the past. In later interactions I found he was hell to people in his team. So a victim that acts as aggressor profiting from his little position of group leader, hard to be empathic with someone like this.

I think this is a big problem with people that has faced systemic racism and discrimination, it becomes a part of them and perpetuate the problem.
In the case of Karima, the lady I mentioned, it made her very bitter and untrusting of her compatriots. She often meets them abroad and the moment they clock she's French they are very chatty and convivial, and yet in France she wouldn't get the time of day.
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Old 29.10.2020, 19:46
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

I think there are good and bad people in all religions, but I also think that religion has a way of making some people do very bad things.
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Old 29.10.2020, 19:51
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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I am very pessimistic about the prospects of a peaceful multicultural society. Its never really worked and there are no reasons to believe it will.
Me too!
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Old 29.10.2020, 20:40
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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I am very pessimistic about the prospects of a peaceful multicultural society. Its never really worked and there are no reasons to believe it will.
What about Roman Empire? I have heard it was pretty good for the first 1000 years.
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Old 29.10.2020, 21:01
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Re: France: Charlie Hebdo Office shootings [and further terrorist attacks]

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One problem is that anti-racism groups work tirelessly in the background but get very little exposure or support from politicians because it just isn't a vote winner.
And they will, unfortunately, never succeed. Saudi Arabia spends billions to recruit, train and expatriate imams who preach wahhabism across Europe. Erdogan has made it a policy to do the same and antagonize the Turkish expats with the the local "crusading" christians while at the same time stirring muslim vs. christian long-embedded antagonisms in the former USSR republics. These are powerful forces playing to deeply rooted human fears and emotions and there's no amount of work than an NGO can ever do to offset this.

The US prides itself of its multiculturalism, but this starts and ends with food. full stop. One appreciates a challah bread, a humus on pita, but still lives in a neighborhood that keeps mulsims and jews out. In fact, they tend to live in their own neighborhoods too kind of integrated, but not really and much happier there. An extreme example are Latinos in Florida, who were raised in the US and don't speak English. The segregation is alive and well and the sparks and fires start when segregated groups meet somewhere for some reason. Samuel Huntington, somewhat arrogantly and from the position of a dominant group was onto something with the Clash of Civilizations.


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I don't experience what you describe amongst any of the Moslems I know, and nor to they, in their own circles.
You are describing individuals and I agree on that level. What I am describing is the institution of Islam and the leaders of those institutions. This is what shapes hearts and minds among the ummah by and large, not a few individuals who happen to be content with their neighbor. A fantastic practical joke is to go to Saudi Arabia and ask the tolerant and friendly Saudis where is the nearest church. Some get offended, some look at you as an imbecile and some react with disgust at the mere mention of "church". Done it. Works, every time.


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What about Roman Empire? I have heard it was pretty good for the first 1000 years.
You are referring to the Empire that had the prosecutions of christians as a matter of policy. Paul the Apostle was prosecuting christians before having his visions, after a solid amount of wine, undoubtedly. An Empire that when Constantin had his vision decided to switch to christianity, move the capital to constantinople and has been waging holy wars with islam ever since it appeared on the door step. Multiculturalism in the Roman Empire was reserved mainly for the Greek gods which were conveniently romanized and embedded into the Roman mythology for a sole reason only: Rome is the political and cultural continuation of Greece
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