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-   -   Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/226339-muslim-terrorists-get-state-jobs-free-shrinks-if-they-decide-leave-isis.html)

idefix 22.01.2015 13:52

Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Didn't see this coming.

Apparently some town in Sweden is offering an employment in the commune of the city and a free shrink to every Swedish Jihadist in Syria so they can come back home and start socializing and stop feel alienated. :eek:

http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/komm...-is-krigare-1/

This does sound like Monty Python.

olygirl 22.01.2015 13:53

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Cheaper than going to war.

Guest 22.01.2015 14:00

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Maybe they might have some marketable skills in the Halal meat industry.

Castro 22.01.2015 14:13

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Rehabilitation... what a stupid idea :rolleyes:

idefix 22.01.2015 14:32

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2324853)
Rehabilitation... what a stupid idea :rolleyes:

So you have no problem your citizenship request or work permit or business permit to be handled by a guy who 3 months ago was chopping heads off? You are fine with that?

"Previous work experience?
-Ahm. Yes."

Corbets 22.01.2015 15:01

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2324874)
So you have no problem your citizenship request or work permit or business permit to be handled by a guy who 3 months ago was chopping heads off? You are fine with that?

"Previous work experience?
-Ahm. Yes."

As opposed to what, exactly? Lock 'em all up and throw away the key?

amogles 22.01.2015 15:08

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2324829)
Didn't see this coming.

Apparently some town in Sweden is offering an employment in the commune of the city and a free shrink to every Swedish Jihadist in Syria so they can come back home and start socializing and stop feel alienated. :eek:

http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/komm...-is-krigare-1/

This does sound like Monty Python.

Back in Blighty we had a king called Ethelread the Unready who had a similar idea. He gave the Vikings money if they promised not to invade him. The Vikings took the money but invaded nevetheless. It seems today that the descendants of those Vikings have forgotten something.

So if you want a government job in Sweden, forget about polishing your CV and interviewing skills but join a Jihadist organization. Absolutely great thinking there.

marton 22.01.2015 15:11

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
State jobs? Like policemen? They are armed in Sweden? :eek:

Medea Fleecestealer 22.01.2015 15:14

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbets (Post 2324904)
As opposed to what, exactly? Lock 'em all up and throw away the key?

Sounds like a good idea to me. Of course, I wouldn't waste the money keeping them in jail for the rest of their lives. Execution is what they deserve. Do unto others and all that. They want to kill people who don't share their beliefs, well that works fine for me. They don't share mine of live and let live so good riddance.

And of course we all know how well the rehabilitation thing can work out.

http://www.news.com.au/world/swiss-t...-1226719648403

greenmount 22.01.2015 15:22

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2324910)

So if you want a government job in Sweden, forget about polishing your CV and interviewing skills but join a Jihadist organization. Absolutely great thinking there.

It simply makes a mockery of people who actually study for years in order to be able to get those jobs and who're required to prove their character and achievements.
It is surreal. :msnshock:

slammer 22.01.2015 15:26

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbets (Post 2324904)
As opposed to what, exactly? Lock 'em all up and throw away the key?

Actually no, try them for murder and if that doesn't stick try them for treason, if found guilty, you then lock 'em all up and throw away the key, if not guilty of treason or murder round 'em up simply because of being a member of a criminal organization then take their passports away then send em back with a Mc Donald's happy meal coupon.

CorsebouTheReturn 22.01.2015 15:32

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Its the "victimization" society at its best-
I'm sure they are victim of nasty external individuals, let's do something for those poor babies*.

*let's forget "responsability(for their actions), moral values, common sense, respect (for others), etc...

Where's the donation link, I feel like financially supporting those poor victims!
I am going to buy a T-shirt "Je suis fecked-up".

st2lemans 22.01.2015 15:38

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2324911)
State jobs? Like policemen? They are armed in Sweden? :eek:

No, they aren't.

Tom

cannut 22.01.2015 15:45

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
How you say "Nuts" in Swedish :msnblush:

idefix 22.01.2015 15:45

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
"We see you speak foreign language and traveled abroad. You must have broad cultural views and ideas how to make our commune a better place.
- ???????
Any special skills?
- One time I chopped the heads of an entire family and their neighbors.
Wow, wow. That sounds so adventurous. You got the job, welcome to our team. Your new role is "Assistant cultural project manager".

Pixie B 22.01.2015 15:48

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
My guess would be any members who did return (if it is even possible to get out should one changes one's mind???? ), would not be the psychos who believe Allah will reward them for murder; but rather the vulnerable teens who had been manipulated into joining the cult and need rescuing! i can't imagine them being given jobs such as armed police or anything else similarly inappropriate for a person also undergoing psychological treatment. I don't speak Swedish so am only going off my browser's page translation- doesn't it say council jobs? That includes litterpicking etc, can be quite benign!

Guest 22.01.2015 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by slammer (Post 2324935)
and if that doesn't stick try them for treason

I don't know how it is that the West has forgotten notions of looking after its interests. Perhaps its from getting fat and lazy from its own prosperity. Perhaps it is guilt. Perhaps intellectual treason is simply in vogue in some circles, masquerading as intellect and enlightenment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pixie B (Post 2324964)
My guess would be any members who did return (if it is even possible to get out should one changes one's mind???? ), would not be the psychos who believe Allah will reward them for murder; but rather the vulnerable teens who had been manipulated into joining the cult and need rescuing! i can't imagine them being given jobs such as armed police or anything else similarly inappropriate for a person also undergoing psychological treatment. I don't speak Swedish so am only going off my browser's page translation- doesn't it say council jobs? That includes litterpicking etc, can be quite benign!

This is a good point. If there is real repentance, I would agree to helping them out. But there should be some quid pro quo in value, particulary in actionable intelligence and information that is of some value in the prevention of terrorism.

J2488 22.01.2015 16:01

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Have any of you bothered to read the article, rather then just go off a thread title?

Quote:

Originally Posted by olygirl (Post 2324831)
Cheaper than going to war.

And prevents further spreading of their poison.

Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism expert and more qualified to comment that anyone here:
"This is about giving these people a structure. Get them back into normality, instead of recruiting and radicalization of other young people. Preventive work so that they do not relapse into their violent activities. If you do not have a preventive work, that's when it could be disastrous consequences.
Others are critical."

Its not a 'reward' in any way, shape, or form. Its a chance to break the cycle of terrorism>heavy response>collateral damage>more terrorism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 2324874)
So you have no problem your citizenship request or work permit or business permit to be handled by a guy who 3 months ago was chopping heads off? You are fine with that?

"Previous work experience?
-Ahm. Yes."

Are you really so daft as to think they will immediately be given high level jobs with no supervision? Do you not think the swedish authorities will be keeping a very close track of them, and likely monitoring everything they do? The point is that rather then throw them in jail to radicalize people there, or make martyrs of them, you use them to break the cycle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 2324910)
Back in Blighty we had a king called Ethelread the Unready who had a similar idea. He gave the Vikings money if they promised not to invade him. The Vikings took the money but invaded nevetheless. It seems today that the descendants of those Vikings have forgotten something.

So if you want a government job in Sweden, forget about polishing your CV and interviewing skills but join a Jihadist organization. Absolutely great thinking there.

I'm pretty sure we have moved on from Ethelred. What you mention is nothing even close to what the Swedish are suggesting. They are suggesting rehabilitation, not bribing them. Bring them back in to society, and show them, and others contemplating the same path, that swedish society and their society is one and the same. End result? Those radicalizing young people have no leg to stand on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 2324911)
State jobs? Like policemen? They are armed in Sweden? :eek:

Of course not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2324913)
Sounds like a good idea to me. Of course, I wouldn't waste the money keeping them in jail for the rest of their lives. Execution is what they deserve. Do unto others and all that. They want to kill people who don't share their beliefs, well that works fine for me. They don't share mine of live and let live so good riddance.

And of course we all know how well the rehabilitation thing can work out.

http://www.news.com.au/world/swiss-t...-1226719648403

Its funny you mention that case:
The guy was actually in jail in that case. Did being in jail help in any way? or was he just as bad, if not worse, when he came out of long-term detention?

The article pretty neatly sums up what happens when you think its as easy as 'lock them up and throw away the key'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 2324929)
It simply makes a mockery of people who actually study for years in order to be able to get those jobs and who're required to prove their character and achievements.
It is surreal. :msnshock:

Yes, because people often study for years for low level, low pay, local government jobs whilst being constantly monitored and requiring to see a shrink every week. Its what i dreamed of when i was a kid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slammer (Post 2324935)
Actually no, try them for murder and if that doesn't stick try them for treason, if found guilty, you then lock 'em all up and throw away the key, if not guilty of treason or murder round 'em up simply because of being a member of a criminal organization then take their passports away then send em back with a Mc Donald's happy meal coupon.

See above.

Those who truly believe in the above course of action don't really understand how terrorists are recruited. When you do what you suggest, you make them seem like martyrs. And you end up propagating the cycle.

PS, taking passports away is illegal, as you make them stateless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 2324941)
Its the "victimization" society at its best-
I'm sure they are victim of nasty external individuals, let's do something for those poor babies*.

*let's forget "responsability(for their actions), moral values, common sense, respect (for others), etc...

Where's the donation link, I feel like financially supporting those poor victims!
I am going to buy a T-shirt "Je suis fecked-up".

No it isnt. Its the 'lets understand terrorism for what it is, and stop the cycle spreading and creating a new generation of homegrown terrorists' society.

To all those saying this is a stupid idea, i ask this: Why is it that this war against terror, with our current tactics, seems to be getting worse and worse, instead of better and better, with every terrorist killed?

Is it possible that killing these people does not kill their ideology?

J2488 22.01.2015 16:02

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pixie B (Post 2324964)
My guess would be any members who did return (if it is even possible to get out should one changes one's mind???? ), would not be the psychos who believe Allah will reward them for murder; but rather the vulnerable teens who had been manipulated into joining the cult and need rescuing! i can't imagine them being given jobs such as armed police or anything else similarly inappropriate for a person also undergoing psychological treatment. I don't speak Swedish so am only going off my browser's page translation- doesn't it say council jobs? That includes litterpicking etc, can be quite benign!

Thank god for some common sense on this thread.

Guest 22.01.2015 16:05

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2324913)
They don't share mine of live and let live

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2324913)
Execution is what they deserve

Lol.

CorsebouTheReturn 22.01.2015 16:10

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by J2488 (Post 2324981)
No it isnt. Its the 'lets understand terrorism for what it is, and stop the cycle spreading and creating a new generation of homegrown terrorists' society.

To all those saying this is a stupid idea, i ask this: Why is it that this war against terror, with our current tactics, seems to be getting worse and worse, instead of better and better, with every terrorist killed?

Is it possible that killing these people does not kill their ideology?


Not only that was a stupid idea, and your answer makes me vomit (virtually).

It's much worse than "understanding terrorism" it's taking an "discriminating" action towards people who have crossed the line.

But yeah, defend those "victims".

They had decades to read books, try to comply with most society rules and to do something with themselves. Instead they chose to go to war to potentially kill some other human beings because they think differently.
I think it's too late for education and that they should be kicked badly.
As for the idiots who are trying to defend them, they deserved the same treatment if not worse for misusing their alleged intelligence.

Well, but we won't agree, so move on.

J2488 22.01.2015 16:22

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 2324993)
Not only that was a stupid idea, and your answer makes me vomit (virtually).

It's much worse than "understanding terrorism" it's taking an "discriminating" action towards people who have crossed the line.

But yeah, defend those "victims".

They had decades to read books, try to comply with most society rules and to do something with themselves. Instead they chose to go to war to potentially kill some other human beings because they think differently.
I think it's too late for education and that they should be kicked badly.
As for the idiots who are trying to defend them, they deserved the same treatment if not worse for misusing their alleged intelligence.

Well, but we won't agree, so move on.

And making martyrs of them, so they can inspire a new generation, is of course, not a stupid idea? :rolleyes:

I never called them victims, and don't try to paint it that way.

People with your viewpoint make me laugh. You say you want to fight terrorism, but you cant comprehend, for one minute, that the answer to successfully beating it might not be in killing/imprisoning them.

I'm gonna bold the next bit to emphasize it, in the hope that you actually try to read it properly.

Jail is not the only way to remove somebody's freedom. It is, however, the only way to ensure their exclusion. Exclusion from society is one of the key factors that leads to radicalization in the first place.

If you exclude people, if you show them that they are 'different' and not part of society, they look for something they can be a part of. And guess what, Al Qaeda is hiring.

Do you see the pattern here?

Answer the questions i put above:
'Why is it that this war against terror, with our current tactics, seems to be getting worse and worse, instead of better and better, with every terrorist killed?'

MidfieldGeneral 22.01.2015 16:31

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 2324941)
Its the "victimization" society at its best

Please can you explain what this means?

Guest 22.01.2015 16:35

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by J2488 (Post 2325017)
Jail is not the only way to remove somebody's freedom. It is, however, the only way to ensure their exclusion. Exclusion from society is one of the key factors that leads to radicalization in the first place.

If you exclude people, if you show them that they are 'different' and not part of society, they look for something they can be a part of. And guess what, Al Qaeda is hiring.

Do you see the pattern here?

Answer the questions i put above:
'Why is it that this war against terror, with our current tactics, seems to be getting worse and worse, instead of better and better, with every terrorist killed?'

Shall we surrender then?

Once that threshold is passed, it is passed. While you might be addressing those who have not passed it, are you also addressing those who have? Where is justice, in your view?

crazygringo 22.01.2015 16:38

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
the entire notion that somehow an individual becomes a depraved, barbaric murderer solely because someone didn't love them enough is so patently absurd and offensive to logic that I honestly don't know how to rebut it.

idefix 22.01.2015 16:45

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Why don't all of us turn Muslim and start Shariya states everywhere? Problem solved.

Castro 22.01.2015 16:49

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
This may sound like a radical statement, but a terrorist is nothing more than a criminal. And until we stop thinking of them as being some sort of superhuman or alien species that need different rules from every other scumbag criminal, we will never get anywhere.

Guest 22.01.2015 16:54

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2325061)
This may sound like a radical statement, but a terrorist is nothing more than a criminal. And until we stop thinking of them as being some sort of superhuman or alien species that need different rules from every other scumbag criminal, we will never get anywhere.

I agree that a terrorist is merely a criminal, but terrorism is a racket. Now, a racket survives long after its participants. Simply targetting its participants does not eradicate the racket.

We had a similar situation in the US. Organized crime was very difficult to prosecute. So they created the RICO act. It does not need to target a particular crime or criminal, only patterns of organized criminal behavior. I believe there are some parallels here. Europe seems to be struggling with the proper approach, but it needs to keep struggling until it finds one.

These guys are committing conspiracy and treason. But you would need some notion of nationalism to have a notion of treason. Unfortunately, Nationalism is equated with Racist Bigotry in Newspeak.

farmadoc 22.01.2015 17:00

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 2324929)
It simply makes a mockery of people who actually study for years in order to be able to get those jobs and who're required to prove their character and achievements.
It is surreal. :msnshock:

Get which jobs? These are going to be make-work jobs, simply to put people into a structured environment, give them something to live for and hope for and intensively monitor their progress all the while. No one, not a single person in the world, was born to murder. While everyone is responsible for his or her personal actions, surely it's the job of society to do what it can to shift the path of criminals back towards those of stable, law abiding people. And to the poster who said to just kill them, no comment.

TenaciousJ 22.01.2015 17:06

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Toilet scrubber in Guantanamo? :-)

Guest 22.01.2015 17:08

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by farmadoc (Post 2325076)
Get which jobs? These are going to be make-work jobs, simply to put people into a structured environment, give them something to live for and hope for and intensively monitor their progress all the while. No one, not a single person in the world, was born to murder. While everyone is responsible for his or her personal actions, surely it's the job of society to do what it can to shift the path of criminals back towards those of stable, law abiding people. And to the poster who said to just kill them, no comment.

I would agree with this for someone only involved with property damage. But for someone who might have slaughtered innocent people, this seems to pervert the course of justice. I thinking bringing such a person to full rehabilitation also implies bringing them to full recognition that their acts require the full course of justice.

amogles 22.01.2015 17:12

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by farmadoc (Post 2325076)
Get which jobs? These are going to be make-work jobs, simply to put people into a structured environment, give them something to live for and hope for and intensively monitor their progress all the while. No one, not a single person in the world, was born to murder. While everyone is responsible for his or her personal actions, surely it's the job of society to do what it can to shift the path of criminals back towards those of stable, law abiding people. And to the poster who said to just kill them, no comment.

I think as long as you have well-meaning and basically honest poeople trying to get into those jobs, and you are instead offering them to extremists who mumble that they're sorry, you are creating wrong and dangerous incentives.

If on the other hand these are jobs that genuinely nobody wants, then it's more a penitentiary labour scheme than helping them into government jobs.

Medea Fleecestealer 22.01.2015 17:12

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by J2488 (Post 2325017)
Jail is not the only way to remove somebody's freedom. It is, however, the only way to ensure their exclusion. Exclusion from society is one of the key factors that leads to radicalization in the first place.

So most of these people have already been excluded from their societies, is that it? After all, they've become radicalised so this must be the case.

I'm sure many people in the world feel excluded from their societies, but they don't go out and kill others because of it.

I'm with Castro. These people are simply criminals and should be treated as such.

MidfieldGeneral 22.01.2015 17:13

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2325095)
So most of these people have already been excluded from their societies, is that it? After all, they've become radicalised so this must be the case.

I'm sure many people in the world feel excluded from their societies, but they don't go out and kill others because of it.

I'm with Castro. These people are simply criminals and should be treated as such.

do you believe in the rehabilitation of criminals?

farmadoc 22.01.2015 17:22

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2325061)
This may sound like a radical statement, but a terrorist is nothing more than a criminal. And until we stop thinking of them as being some sort of superhuman or alien species that need different rules from every other scumbag criminal, we will never get anywhere.

They are a very specific sort of criminal which means they post a very specific problem, have a very specific cause and might have a very specific solution. In other words, rehabilitation might be a very easy fix. Typically the cause is social exclusion, lack of integration, lack of pride. Jail would only reinforce these but a job could easily turn it all around.

Medea Fleecestealer 22.01.2015 17:51

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MidfieldGeneral (Post 2325098)
do you believe in the rehabilitation of criminals?

I think it can work in some cases; evidently Texas has been doing quite well at it.

http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/articl...rm-5256894.php

But let's not forget that we are talking about murderers here, not someone convicted of petty theft. These people are either going out to fight and kill people or are going to support them, thereby aiding their murderous intentions. Murder means life in jail in my book (if they can't be executed) so rehabilitation is irrelevant.

MidfieldGeneral 22.01.2015 18:01

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Thanks, in the specific case quoted in that article, was he a murderer? I can't understand the language of the newspaper

Medea Fleecestealer 22.01.2015 18:16

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MidfieldGeneral (Post 2325143)
Thanks, in the specific case quoted in that article, was he a murderer? I can't understand the language of the newspaper

What specific case? :confused:

MidfieldGeneral 22.01.2015 18:18

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
In the first post

Medea Fleecestealer 22.01.2015 18:30

Re: Muslim terrorists to get state jobs and free shrinks if they decide to leave ISIS
 
No idea as I don't know Swedish either. But if he/she is a member of ISIS most likely they are or at least approve of others who do it for ISIS.


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