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  #21  
Old 29.04.2015, 12:27
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

then there is no point in having any mandatory sentencing, everyone should be locked up until they are rehabilitated, for however long that takes.

I don't believe people can change, given a similar set of circumstances most people would do the same again.

lets face it, its all a silly discussion anyway, the law is there, they broke it, they are dead, 100% sure they won't be smuggling again.
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Old 29.04.2015, 12:45
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

In other countries there were a few more executed yesterday,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/articl...-talking-about
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  #23  
Old 29.04.2015, 13:04
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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In other countries there were a few more executed yesterday,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/articl...-talking-about
had they also been smuggling heroin in indonesia ?
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  #24  
Old 29.04.2015, 13:13
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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Yes, maybe it is sad but China executes around 3,000 people every year yet and I don't see people throwing up their hands in horror over that or boycotting Chinese-made goods such as smart phones.

So, on the grand scale of things, I can't get worked up about a couple of drug dealers who are were part of chain of which spread misery to so many Australian families.
I'm not saying that we should all be outraged nonstop because oppressive regime XYZ executed yet another batch of people. I'm disappointed by the lack of empathy some people are showing here. There is a distinction between 'throwing up your hands in horror' and the cynical 'they knew the risks and now they are dead, who gives a toss' vibe I'm getting here. I'm not wailing at the screen, but I do feel sorry for this lot. Maybe it is the simple thing of 9 people dying is a tragedy, 3000 is a statistic. It is difficult to relate to such massive loss of life (let alone truly big ones).

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If one of my family where caught smuggling drugs in/out of Bali how would I feel?? no idea, its not likely to happen, if it did I would think they where mind numblingly stupid.
I can say without any hesitation that if it was one of my loved ones I'd do everything humanly possible to get them out of there. Saying something like "I don't know, I'd think they're stupid." is just bizarre. I don't even know how to reconcile thinking like that with loving someone in a situation like this.
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  #25  
Old 29.04.2015, 13:20
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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Maybe it is the simple thing of 2 civilised and upstanding Australian citizens dying in a foreign country after being convicted of an offence of which they knew the punishment is a tragedy, 3000 is a statistic. It is difficult to relate to such massive loss of life (let alone truly big ones).
Thats the crux of the matter.

The executions would have passed unnoticed by nearly 100% of the world's population had they all been native Balinese or foreign nationals of a "tin-pot little African" country.

I don't believe in capital punishment - but that doesn't stop it existing and it doesn't stop us allowing sovereign countries to apply their own laws and punishments.
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  #26  
Old 29.04.2015, 13:29
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

8 less drug dealers in the world can only be a good thing, no?

We can all say if it was my wife / son/ husband I would do everything etc etc etc but in reality none of us will ever be in that situation, nothing on earth would make me knowingly smuggle drugs (or have anything to do with them) and I'm 100% sure my wife will never have anything to do with drugs, pretty sure my son won't either, he's seen the news, we've talked about it etc

As for the rest of my family, brother, sister, cousins etc I'd have no problem at all disowning them if thats the path they chose.
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Old 29.04.2015, 14:14
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

One argument from Australia was their two men had been reformed in prison.
Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said on Tuesday that the executions were "both cruel and unnecessary," adding that Chan and Sukumaran had been "fully rehabilitated" while in prison.
I can imagine that anyone spending 9 years on death row could take up Bible reading and painting, and still able to sell drugs after being released.

Indonesia claims 33 people die each day after using drugs, the solution is obvious to me. (Don't get involved!)
Indonesia says it takes a hard line because of the country's own drugs problem - 33 Indonesians die every day as a result of drugs, according to Indonesia's National Narcotics Agency.

Meanwhile, nobody is shedding a tear for these 15 North Korean officials
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-32511431
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  #28  
Old 29.04.2015, 14:20
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

Just to put things in perspective...

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...9874c8683912df
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  #29  
Old 29.04.2015, 14:27
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

I'm not in favour of the death penalty but Indonesia has it for the crimes committed and the people were guilty of the crimes so they had to accept it.

You can't have a mandatory death sentence for drug trafficking and then turn around and say oh but he's Australian so we won't execute him and she's Brazilian so we won't execute him but he's Nigerian so it's ok to execute him.


That's not how it works.

All the appeal processes had been exhausted in these cases so they had no option but to carry out the sentences.

Instead if putting pressure on countries like Indonesia to 'spare' convicted and condemned prisoners the governments of places like Australia and France and Brazil should be working on ways to change the system in those countries where they think the system is unjust by entering into dialogue and discussions with them.
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  #30  
Old 29.04.2015, 14:31
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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I'm not in favour of the death penalty but Indonesia has it for the crimes committed and the people were guilty of the crimes so they had to accept it.
I don't particularly care what happens to the criminals themselves, for all the reasons others have stated. But I simply cannot support the death penalty under any circumstances because it punishes the innocent (the relatives). Two wrongs don't make a right
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  #31  
Old 29.04.2015, 14:45
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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Indonesia claims 33 people die each day after using drugs, the solution is obvious to me. (Don't get involved!)
Indonesia says it takes a hard line because of the country's own drugs problem - 33 Indonesians die every day as a result of drugs, according to Indonesia's National Narcotics Agency.
That's all fair enough, but these guys were smuggling drugs 'out' of Indonesia, not in. Surely they should have received some credit for reducing the amount on the streets of Jakarta
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  #32  
Old 29.04.2015, 15:14
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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I don't particularly care what happens to the criminals themselves, for all the reasons others have stated. But I simply cannot support the death penalty under any circumstances because it punishes the innocent (the relatives). Two wrongs don't make a right
It is actually a huge debate among the Indonesian people. On one hand, people realise what problems the drug dealers have made, especially to the younger generations.. and lots of other arguments raised by the government to pass such law. On the other, the people are aware of how much corrupted the government is, that it is to certain extent involved in drugs smuggling, distributions and all that.
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  #33  
Old 30.04.2015, 00:55
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

I don't understand the public outrage. I travel to Indonesia on a regular basis and they tell you very clearly on the immigration form that there's a death penalty on drug trafficking. Heck, it's not like they had a couple of grams of pot on them, then I would find this out of line too. But it was 8 KILOGRAMS of heroin. These guys knew EXACTLY what they were doing, it's not like they were given the heroin without their knowledge.

For heaven's sake, we expect people to adapt to our local laws and regulations when they come here for whatever reason - that is part of the game. Indonesia has the death penalty on certain crimes, as do many other countries - it doesn't even matter whether you're in favor of death penalty or not, it's their law. These guys broke it. Simple as that. So they were supposed to make an exception just because a few of the guys who were guilty as sin happened to be Australians? Come on. Where would this end?
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  #34  
Old 30.04.2015, 14:59
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

It is not a matter of selectivity. There are well-founded reasons for the public outrage over the executions, which are based on its profound injustice.

Even leaving aside general opposition to the death penalty as inhumane, a human rights violation and senseless when the prisoners are rehabilitated since there is no credible scientific evidence that the death penalty deters crime...

The death penalty should never be carried out before all legal avenues are exhausted. At the time of execution, there was an ongoing judicial commission investigation into serious allegations of judicial bribery and political corruption in sentencing these men. A constitutional appeal was also due to be heard on 12 May. The executions went ahead before the judicial investigation and constitutional appeal could be finalised. Is that justice?
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Old 30.04.2015, 18:35
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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It is not a matter of selectivity. There are well-founded reasons for the public outrage over the executions, which are based on its profound injustice.

Even leaving aside general opposition to the death penalty as inhumane, a human rights violation and senseless when the prisoners are rehabilitated since there is no credible scientific evidence that the death penalty deters crime...

The death penalty should never be carried out before all legal avenues are exhausted. At the time of execution, there was an ongoing judicial commission investigation into serious allegations of judicial bribery and political corruption in sentencing these men. A constitutional appeal was also due to be heard on 12 May. The executions went ahead before the judicial investigation and constitutional appeal could be finalised. Is that justice?
But that's not the issue at hand. This is not an outrage over the death penalty per se. No one would have given a s* - at least not publicly and in such an intense manner - if it had been only Indonesian drug dealers. The only reason anyone cares is because a few of them happened to be foreigners.

And sorry, that is hypocritical. It's one thing to be against death penalty and regard it as a human rights violation. That is understandable, fair and I even agree with this (on a rational level at least). But it's another to be outraged just because foreigners receive the same treatment as nationals for the same crime. I didn't see any particular outrage over the Indonesians that were executed. I just read outrage over the oh-so-poor Australians who, again, were as guilty as they can be.

If someone's generally against death penalty, one would have to be outraged every single time someone gets executed in the US, China, India, Thailand and a couple of dozen other countries. I don't see that happening, though. People want to show there protest and stop traveling to Indonesia - good for them. And I mean that. But if this were actually about being anti-death-penalty and not about anti-death-penalty-because-two-Australians-were-executed, this would also mean that they'd have to stop traveling to the aforementioned countries - and somehow I very much doubt that will be the case.

Indonesia can set up whatever rules they want. More or less anyway, within certain boundaries of course. Until the Bali Nine, no one cared. Now suddenly everybody does. So the next step is that if a Swiss murders three French in France, he should be spared whatever penalty he would get in France for that crime simply because he's not French?

Also, an appeal would not have made a difference. As is often the case with appeals, this was more about postponing the inevitable. And rehabilitation often follows this pattern: do the crime and when facing consequences for your massive mistakes, start believing in God. And suddenly you're forgiven. If only it were that easy. For every piece of evidence that death penalty doesn't prevent crimes, there's just as much evidence that rehabilitation doesn't work.

Last edited by Samaire13; 30.04.2015 at 18:49.
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  #36  
Old 30.04.2015, 19:23
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

The female in the group was only spared because someone gave themselves up to police at the last minute, effectively mitigating her conviction. Had this person done this 24 hours later, what would have been the options?

That is really the crux of the death penalty issue. Better 99 guilty go free than execute 1 innocent. And it's very hard to pardon a corpse.
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  #37  
Old 30.04.2015, 20:45
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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It is not a matter of selectivity. There are well-founded reasons for the public outrage over the executions, which are based on its profound injustice.

Even leaving aside general opposition to the death penalty as inhumane, a human rights violation and senseless when the prisoners are rehabilitated since there is no credible scientific evidence that the death penalty deters crime...

The death penalty should never be carried out before all legal avenues are exhausted. At the time of execution, there was an ongoing judicial commission investigation into serious allegations of judicial bribery and political corruption in sentencing these men. A constitutional appeal was also due to be heard on 12 May. The executions went ahead before the judicial investigation and constitutional appeal could be finalised. Is that justice?
It's nice to see someone with something rational to say.
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  #38  
Old 30.04.2015, 21:00
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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But that's not the issue at hand. This is not an outrage over the death penalty per se. No one would have given a s* - at least not publicly and in such an intense manner - if it had been only Indonesian drug dealers. The only reason anyone cares is because a few of them happened to be foreigners.

And sorry, that is hypocritical. It's one thing to be against death penalty and regard it as a human rights violation. That is understandable, fair and I even agree with this (on a rational level at least). But it's another to be outraged just because foreigners receive the same treatment as nationals for the same crime. I didn't see any particular outrage over the Indonesians that were executed. I just read outrage over the oh-so-poor Australians who, again, were as guilty as they can be.

If someone's generally against death penalty, one would have to be outraged every single time someone gets executed in the US, China, India, Thailand and a couple of dozen other countries. I don't see that happening, though.
Undoubtedly these executions did garner more international attention because the Australian media and Australian public had an interest in the case. I agree that it is hypocritical if people are only upset because Australians were executed, and that reaction should be criticised. But just because some people may be hypocritical, doesn't change the justice or injustice of the execution itself. And it is a good thing that these executions got international attention because it brings the death penalty into the public arena for debate and discussion. Perhaps people who do not normally care about these issues will now give it more thought and put pressure on governments to oppose the death penalty in all situations. It has to start somewhere.

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Also, an appeal would not have made a difference. As is often the case with appeals, this was more about postponing the inevitable.
So the State should just execute people without due process then? How do you know the appeal wouldn't have made a difference, if it did not occur? As others have pointed out, the death penalty is irreversible and so it is crucial that all legal appeals are exhausted before it is carried out - all the more so in a case in which there were serious and credible allegations of judicial bribery and corruption.

It seems like you are confusing the moral and legal character of the executions with your view of the public opposition to them.
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  #39  
Old 01.05.2015, 09:32
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

The case does have parallels with The case of Barlow and Chambers, two Aussie men hanged in Malaysia for drug smuggling. There was protest back then but it was before the Internet, so no blow-by-blow account or media distortion.
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Old 01.05.2015, 15:09
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Re: Bali Nine duo - not looking good

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I would've expected different from people here.
The two aussies had a choice, decided to try and make off on the misfortune of others (the addicts) and lost. They could have avoided the death penalty by smuggling to a different country, but perhaps that would have paid far less, i.e. with a little less greed they might still be alive. I see zero reason for compassion.

Not having any compassion for the two aussies doesn't mean one supports their execution. It's just that: lack of compassion.
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