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Old 27.03.2015, 21:46
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Best start spending those Miles & More miles.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ited-liability
They are insured… it won't cost Lufthansa themselves.
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  #282  
Old 27.03.2015, 23:18
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

A few random thoughts, apologies if they come out a bit wonky.

Airplanes are some of the most sophisticated machines out there, with loads of built-in redundancies so that if a system fails a backup is in place. Isn't it odd that in arguably the most variable element (human being) no true redundancy was required until now? We're only now saying hey, there should be two people on the flight deck at all times.

It's true that a nutjob intent on crashing the plane will probably find a way and could knock out or kill the other person in the cockpit. However, I think having a second person might cause a borderline nutjob to pause and maybe not take the action.

It's one thing to put the plane on a crash course and ignore the screams behind you without seeing the faces of those you are killing. It's entirely another to first murder or incapacitate your co-worker with your own hands so you can then put the plane on a crash course without interference.
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  #283  
Old 27.03.2015, 23:31
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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It's one thing to put the plane on a crash course and ignore the screams behind you without seeing the faces of those you are killing. It's entirely another to first murder or incapacitate your co-worker with your own hands so you can then put the plane on a crash course without interference.
Has nearly happened though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

Suicide attempt that almost succeeded and with no mental health problems to cloud the issue. Deliberately planned and nearly executed. Only thwarted by the courage of the flight crew in tackling him and keeping him pinned down despite being severely injured themselves.

The only reason it was a new crew was that Calloway's crew overflew their flying hours by one minute the previous day so instead of being the flight engineer for the trip, he was only on board as a passenger.
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  #284  
Old 28.03.2015, 00:06
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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They are insured… it won't cost Lufthansa themselves.
Unless the insurance co. can prove Lufthansa did not act correctly; for example, knowingly letting an unfit employee fly.
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Old 28.03.2015, 00:24
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Unless the insurance co. can prove Lufthansa did not act correctly; for example, knowingly letting an unfit employee fly.
I assume he will have held a class one medical, by doctors not employed by lufthansa. Lufthansa bosses can only go on whether Doctors say he is fit to fly as they are not doctors themselves. Yes they knew about he depressive episode, but if they are told he is recovered by the professionals and he passes his medical, can it be Lufthansa's fault?
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  #286  
Old 28.03.2015, 00:39
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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I assume he will have held a class one medical, by doctors not employed by lufthansa. Lufthansa bosses can only go on whether Doctors say he is fit to fly as they are not doctors themselves. Yes they knew about he depressive episode, but if they are told he is recovered by the professionals and he passes his medical, can it be Lufthansa's fault?
No
but
According to newspaper reports he had a torn up sick certificate.
Now if Lufthansa had reasonable grounds to assume he was sick on that day and ignored it.....
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Old 28.03.2015, 00:43
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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No
but
According to newspaper reports he had a torn up sick certificate.
Now if Lufthansa had reasonable grounds to assume he was sick on that day and ignored it.....
According to the voice transcripts he was quite jovial for the first part of the flight. I am sure the Capt would have been the first to relieve him of his duties if he felt he was a danger to himself or the flight.
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  #288  
Old 28.03.2015, 00:45
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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No
but
According to newspaper reports he had a torn up sick certificate.
Now if Lufthansa had reasonable grounds to assume he was sick on that day and ignored it.....
He never gave them the sick notes, how would they possibly know, unless he was exhibiting strange behaviour, in which case I'm sure he would have been stopped from flying.
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  #289  
Old 28.03.2015, 01:38
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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According to the voice transcripts he was quite jovial for the first part of the flight. I am sure the Capt would have been the first to relieve him of his duties if he felt he was a danger to himself or the flight.
Which the insurance company could use to claim the Capt. should have noticed; especially as he is not around to defend himself.

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He never gave them the sick notes, how would they possibly know, unless he was exhibiting strange behaviour, in which case I'm sure he would have been stopped from flying.
I thought doctors were obliged to report certain conditions; depending on which country and what was wrong with him, of course.
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Old 28.03.2015, 08:48
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Which the insurance company could use to claim the Capt. should have noticed; especially as he is not around to defend himself..
The insurers will pay out, straight away, no messing. It's not like personal insurance where they try and get out of paying! I had this conversation once with someone who worked in aviation insurance!
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  #291  
Old 28.03.2015, 08:49
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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For all of you going on about mental illness, please note that it doesn't seem to be the case here.

"In a statement (in German), prosecutors said they had seized medical documents from Mr Lubitz's two residences - his Duesseldorf flat and his parents' home north of Frankfurt - which indicated an "existing illness and appropriate medical treatment".
The "fact that, among the documents found, there were sick notes - torn-up, current and for the day of the crash - leads to the provisional assessment that the deceased was hiding his illness from his employer", the report states.
Germanwings confirmed it had not been given a sick note for the day of the crash.
Duesseldorf's University Hospital issued a statement (in German) saying Mr Lubitz had attended the hospital on 10 March and last month.
Adding that it had handed his medical records over to prosecutors, it said reports the co-pilot had been treated there for depression were incorrect.
Germany's Rheinischer Post newspaper, which spoke to the hospital, quoted its own unnamed sources as saying Mr Lubitz had been suffering from a physical, rather than a mental, illness."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32087203

It could be something as simple as he's been having treatment for a terminal illness which hasn't worked and he simply decided to end it all. Not everyone leaves a suicide note when they decide to leave this world. Though why he saw the need to take another 149 people with him is beyond me.
Good point Media Fleecestealer - everyone seems to have decided it is a FACT that he was being treated for depression now - but the hospital has clearly stated that was not the case. He could have had a siezure or a stroke - would that make his breathing irregular? I`m not a doctor but maybe there are case of a stroke in which the vctim is jst paralised. What about re-setting the controls? I don`t know the answers - and the fact is no-one does.
However everyone wants a clear cut finger of blame and in the co-pilot, they found it already. Probably it`s true but for now - we don`t know.
When it does become clear - the next finger of blame may point at whoever treated him for depression earler or whoever was treating him up to the time of the tragedy - and say `You - you knew he was a pilot and you knew he was not fit for service - why did you not report it?`
Where does it end?
I wish people would just think a little more before making false comments - according to the hospital, he was not being treated for depression.
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Old 28.03.2015, 09:08
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Good point Media Fleecestealer - everyone seems to have decided it is a FACT that he was being treated for depression now - but the hospital has clearly stated that was not the case. He could have had a siezure or a stroke - would that make his breathing irregular? I`m not a doctor but maybe there are case of a stroke in which the vctim is jst paralised. What about re-setting the controls? I don`t know the answers - and the fact is no-one does.
However everyone wants a clear cut finger of blame and in the co-pilot, they found it already. Probably it`s true but for now - we don`t know.
When it does become clear - the next finger of blame may point at whoever treated him for depression earler or whoever was treating him up to the time of the tragedy - and say `You - you knew he was a pilot and you knew he was not fit for service - why did you not report it?`
Where does it end?
I wish people would just think a little more before making false comments - according to the hospital, he was not being treated for depression.
depression or not he configured the autopilot to go to an altitude of 30m after the captain left the cockpit, so he was well aware of what he was doing, he was obviously crazy
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  #293  
Old 28.03.2015, 09:11
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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He configured the autopilot to go to an altitude of 30m after the captain left the cockpit, so he was well aware of what he was doing
Not to mention overriding the cockpit door lock.
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  #294  
Old 28.03.2015, 09:16
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Good point Media Fleecestealer - everyone seems to have decided it is a FACT that he was being treated for depression now - but the hospital has clearly stated that was not the case. He could have had a siezure or a stroke - would that make his breathing irregular? I`m not a doctor but maybe there are case of a stroke in which the vctim is jst paralised. What about re-setting the controls? I don`t know the answers - and the fact is no-one does.
However everyone wants a clear cut finger of blame and in the co-pilot, they found it already. Probably it`s true but for now - we don`t know.
When it does become clear - the next finger of blame may point at whoever treated him for depression earler or whoever was treating him up to the time of the tragedy - and say `You - you knew he was a pilot and you knew he was not fit for service - why did you not report it?`
Where does it end?
I wish people would just think a little more before making false comments - according to the hospital, he was not being treated for depression.
The article I quoted from cited sources, including his employer, that stated he suffered from depression. In fairness, they also cited sources that denied the same, but I didn't pull depression out of thin air by any stretch of the imagination.

And as OSueco pointed out (as does the article) the cabin recorder shows that a specific control was activated to initiate descent. That doesn't happen by accident — it's a deliberate turn of a knob — and it was done just after the plane reached cruising altitude and shortly after the captain left the cockpit. It's not impossible that he had a stroke or something afterwards, but putting the plane into descent mode could only have been done by the co-pilot.
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Old 28.03.2015, 09:28
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

Am I the only one to think, that there is absolutely too little information available in order to determine what really had happened on that plane?
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Old 28.03.2015, 09:36
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

Is this just jumping on the bandwagon? Andreas Lubitz was

"obsessed" by the Alps and was well acquainted with the area of the crash, according to people who knew him.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/andreas-lub...h-site-1493913
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Old 28.03.2015, 09:37
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Am I the only one to think, that there is absolutely too little information available in order to determine what really had happened on that plane?
The conclusions have been drawn by the French investigator and the airline, these are not wild speculations from an irresponsible press. If there was even a sliver of doubt they would definitely have sat on it for a while longer.
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Old 28.03.2015, 09:47
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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The conclusions have been drawn by the French investigator and the airline, these are not wild speculations from an irresponsible press. If there was even a sliver of doubt they would definitely have sat on it for a while longer.
So basically, what you're saying is, that the data derived from the blackbox covers all possible loose ends. Meaning, they can absolutely, without any doubt confirm intent and action of the pilot solely from the breathing overheard on the voice recorder?
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Old 28.03.2015, 10:04
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Am I the only one to think, that there is absolutely too little information available in order to determine what really had happened on that plane?
Too little information in the public domain - probably. But they don't base their judgement on that.
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Old 28.03.2015, 11:05
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Is this just jumping on the bandwagon? Andreas Lubitz was

"obsessed" by the Alps and was well acquainted with the area of the crash, according to people who knew him.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/andreas-lub...h-site-1493913
Yes. More sensationalist journalism. Obsessed is hardly the word I would use for someone who pursued a hobby in a location which supports that hobby. Did the reporter investigate if he ONLY went gliding in the French Alps? Or did they get a juicy quote from some nobody and run with it?
My boat is docked at a particular marina. Am I considered obsessed with that marina?
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