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Old 30.03.2015, 17:02
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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I think the 'two-in cockpit' rule as already practiced amongst the US carriers is the best, most pragmatic solution for the time being. Its easy to adopt, confidence inspiring for passengers and should deter any future episodes.
Consider the cockpit hierarchy - what would it take for anybody to physically attack their boss? And even if a steward acted, what can he actually do - they're not pilots, don't know how to fly the bird.

In this tagesanzeiger article pilots are quoted saying that a pilot can have any plane plummet in a way that will irreversibly lead to a crash, e.g. by initiating a steep nosedive and simultaneously stomp the side rudders (to initiate a spiral spin?).

Some things just can't be prevented. But of course that can't be acknowledged in todays society that demands absolute safety.
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  #422  
Old 30.03.2015, 17:14
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

It's being reported that investigators in Germany say that Lubitz received treatment for suicidal tendencies before getting his pilots license.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32113507
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  #423  
Old 30.03.2015, 17:52
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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It's exactly this drip-feeding/digging-up speculation grows on.

Well yes, I can see that. Which is why my question was NOT about his medical condition- but why the info has not been released- as it fuels more speculation and frenzy.


You say you feel affected and yet you keep following the news when, it seems from what you write, it would do you much more good to simply ignore the whole story as you can and thereby stop feeding your fears for the loved ones.

I wish- and how I do you do that? Once you know this has happened right on your doorstep- can you take that information away by magic. It is in every paper I subscribe to (don't go and buy the paper just to see what they say on the issue) and on every news that we always watch on a daily basis. Should I stop reading the paper I always read, watch the news I always watch? How long for? How do you switch all that info off- even if I stop reading the paper and watch TV? Please give me the magic recipe.

Nobody says muslims have less rights (at least no me). You are indeed trying to play the discrimination card with your unfounded insinuations.

Insinuations, what insinuations. If you can tell me that if this guy was Egyptian, Pakistani or even a Turkish Muslim, practising or not- or had a Muslim GF or Muslim friends and/or had shown any interest in the Koran- this whole investigation would not have taken another direction?

So before I leave you to it. At what stage does a 'mad man' become a terrorist? Imagine our Pakistani or Egyptian Muslim pilot- who does such a thing- who decides and at what stage, if he is 'just a mad man' or a 'terrorist'??? And at what stage do the investigations switch from one to the other? And the doubt in the 'public's' mind?
Sorry- I've not used the quote function properly. You can continue to totally misread my intentions if you wish.

Last edited by Odile; 30.03.2015 at 19:04.
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  #424  
Old 30.03.2015, 18:51
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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In this tagesanzeiger article pilots are quoted saying that a pilot can have any plane plummet in a way that will irreversibly lead to a crash, e.g. by initiating a steep nosedive and simultaneously stomp the side rudders (to initiate a spiral spin?).
I'm no expert but I thought this was impossible with an Airbus since it has built in flight envelope protection to avoid over-stressing the airframe. So if a pilot was to do that there should still be time to wrestle them from the controls....... I hope
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  #425  
Old 30.03.2015, 19:25
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

Haven't followed this thread that much but have you guys already ruled out the possibility of a bad fish dinner for the co-pilot?
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  #426  
Old 30.03.2015, 20:33
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Haven't followed this thread that much but have you guys already ruled out the possibility of a bad fish dinner for the co-pilot?
I think it was rather the captain....hence the urgency of going on the loo
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  #427  
Old 30.03.2015, 21:24
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Should I stop reading the paper I always read, watch the news I always watch?
If reading the paper and watching the news is emotionally distressing for you, then yes - you should.

What would you lose by giving them a rest for a few weeks?
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Old 30.03.2015, 21:36
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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What's that supposed to mean? That Lubitz is getting special treatment because he's white?!
Well, I find it highly suspicious that whenever these planes go down there are always 2 Iranians aboard. The press focused on the Iranians initially but now seem to have prematurely dismissed them. I mean weren't they the focus before the voice recorder info was released, should we have dismissed them entirely

For those who don't know me the above is my vain attempt at satire.
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Old 30.03.2015, 21:55
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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If reading the paper and watching the news is emotionally distressing for you, then yes - you should.



What would you lose by giving them a rest for a few weeks?

This is good advice. I'm much happier here with limited access to news. I do get headlines emailed to me via various sources, and it's quite enough.
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Old 30.03.2015, 22:33
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Consider the cockpit hierarchy - what would it take for anybody to physically attack their boss? And even if a steward acted, what can he actually do - they're not pilots, don't know how to fly the bird.

In this tagesanzeiger article pilots are quoted saying that a pilot can have any plane plummet in a way that will irreversibly lead to a crash, e.g. by initiating a steep nosedive and simultaneously stomp the side rudders (to initiate a spiral spin?).

Some things just can't be prevented. But of course that can't be acknowledged in todays society that demands absolute safety.
About "Consider the cockpit hierarchy - what would it take for anybody to physically attack their boss?"

Around 40 years ago there was a Trident that went down after take-off from Heathrow, look here.

The rumour was the captain had a heart attack and died during/post takeoff, the co-pilot presumably did not notice and did not try to take control of the plane until too late; although it was clear that the correct sequence of actions was not performed.

The result of the official inquiry did not give this version but also, for me, did not provide a clear conclusion about the "why" for the accident.

The official inquiry published some points that had no actual evidence to support them; no cockpit voice recorders at the time. For example, "The presence of Captain Collins on the flight deck may have been a distraction" Captain Collins led a "dead head" BEA flight crew that had to collect a Merchantman aircraft from Brussels. Captain Collins was in the cockpit on the "jump" seat.
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  #431  
Old 30.03.2015, 23:20
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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I think the 'two-in cockpit' rule as already practiced amongst the US carriers is the best, most pragmatic solution for the time being. Its easy to adopt, confidence inspiring for passengers and should deter any future episodes.
Absolutely not, even having the entire crew inside the cabin while the other pilot is taking a leak will achieve nothing, in about 30 seconds a pilot can stall or bring the airplane in a position that it won't be possible to recover by the time the other pilot comes back or if crew restrains the crazy pilot.

The only way to make a difference is having 3 pilots in the cabin and 2 at all times this way a pilot can notice very early if pilots wants to ditch plane, even than it's not given that there will be positive outcome
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  #432  
Old 30.03.2015, 23:25
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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I'm no expert but I thought this was impossible with an Airbus since it has built in flight envelope protection to avoid over-stressing the airframe. So if a pilot was to do that there should still be time to wrestle them from the controls....... I hope
You expect too much from airplanes, their systems are not that advanced. Flight envelope is there to help you but not to stop you making mistakes because the system can do only so much. It needs human input won't do all that by itself. In the 90s a russian Airbus crashed because a kid brought the plane into a stall while on autopilot and autopilot tried to recover but eventually crashed because pilot also wanted to pull out of the dive.Irony is if no input from pilot during the stall autopilot would have managed to recover it. But if you have the intention to crash the plane there are many ways to do it and no autopilot can stop it. Remember planes need to land manually near ground and obstacles etc so autopilot and ground proximity warnings are useless than
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  #433  
Old 30.03.2015, 23:40
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Haven't followed this thread that much but have you guys already ruled out the possibility of a bad fish dinner for the co-pilot?
Surely you can't be serious.
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  #434  
Old 30.03.2015, 23:44
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Surely you can't be serious.
" ........ and don't call me Shirley".
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  #435  
Old 30.03.2015, 23:51
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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You expect too much from airplanes, their systems are not that advanced. Flight envelope is there to help you but not to stop you making mistakes because the system can do only so much. It needs human input won't do all that by itself. In the 90s a russian Airbus crashed because a kid brought the plane into a stall while on autopilot and autopilot tried to recover but eventually crashed because pilot also wanted to pull out of the dive.Irony is if no input from pilot during the stall autopilot would have managed to recover it. But if you have the intention to crash the plane there are many ways to do it and no autopilot can stop it. Remember planes need to land manually near ground and obstacles etc so autopilot and ground proximity warnings are useless than
I think you're mixing up autopilot and flight envelope protection. The former flies the plane along a pre-defined route whereas the latter is a system of overrides and feedback loops to protect the plane from excessive inputs from the crew. Of course a determined saboteur could probably still crash the plane, but it would put up a hell of a noisy fight.
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Old 31.03.2015, 00:03
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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I think you're mixing up autopilot and flight envelope protection. The former flies the plane along a pre-defined route whereas the latter is a system of overrides and feedback loops to protect the plane from excessive inputs from the crew. Of course a determined saboteur could probably still crash the plane, but it would put up a hell of a noisy fight.
We need rob's expertise here but I think the envelope is enforced by the same or similar "auto pilot" system that flies the plane.
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Old 31.03.2015, 00:42
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Consider the cockpit hierarchy - what would it take for anybody to physically attack their boss? And even if a steward acted, what can he actually do - they're not pilots, don't know how to fly the bird.

In this tagesanzeiger article pilots are quoted saying that a pilot can have any plane plummet in a way that will irreversibly lead to a crash, e.g. by initiating a steep nosedive and simultaneously stomp the side rudders (to initiate a spiral spin?).

Some things just can't be prevented. But of course that can't be acknowledged in todays society that demands absolute safety.

A Steward / Purser can assure that the other Pilot can return into the cockpit
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Old 31.03.2015, 07:58
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Haven't followed this thread that much but have you guys already ruled out the possibility of a bad fish dinner for the co-pilot?
I think you're definitely onto something here, although my first thought was that he'd been offered only cold cuts of meat during the long and strenuous flight.
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  #439  
Old 31.03.2015, 09:27
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Well, I find it highly suspicious that whenever these planes go down there are always 2 Iranians aboard. The press focused on the Iranians initially but now seem to have prematurely dismissed them. I mean weren't they the focus before the voice recorder info was released, should we have dismissed them entirely

For those who don't know me the above is my vain attempt at satire.

a weird satire/irony, and not really appropriate. And jokes aside, they were NEVER the focus of either media or the investigators
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  #440  
Old 31.03.2015, 09:30
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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About "Consider the cockpit hierarchy - what would it take for anybody to physically attack their boss?"

Around 40 years ago there was a Trident that went down after take-off from Heathrow, look here.

The rumour was the captain had a heart attack and died during/post takeoff, the co-pilot presumably did not notice and did not try to take control of the plane until too late; although it was clear that the correct sequence of actions was not performed.

The result of the official inquiry did not give this version but also, for me, did not provide a clear conclusion about the "why" for the accident.

The official inquiry published some points that had no actual evidence to support them; no cockpit voice recorders at the time. For example, "The presence of Captain Collins on the flight deck may have been a distraction" Captain Collins led a "dead head" BEA flight crew that had to collect a Merchantman aircraft from Brussels. Captain Collins was in the cockpit on the "jump" seat.

The Co-Pilot and that guest-captain reacted within less than two minutes, very very swiftly but it was too late
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