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  #61  
Old 25.03.2015, 15:34
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Most recent pictures on BBC show the cockpit voice recorder is pretty banged up. I expect they will be able to retreive the information but it may not be quickly.
Apparently they expect to have a preliminary report today
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Old 25.03.2015, 15:34
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Most recent pictures on BBC show the cockpit voice recorder is pretty banged up. I expect they will be able to retreive the information but it may not be quickly.
Yeah it is, but the cylindrical area where the actual storage is looks to be relatively intact so hopefully it won't be too much of an issue.

Besides these things are designed from the ground up to protect whatever is recorded on them in the most extreme of circumstances, so busted up on the outside does not mean busted up on the inside.
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Old 25.03.2015, 15:36
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

for those in the know,

Do these planes not have failsafe devices? if there was a sudden decompression couldn't the plane turn on autopilot?

Wouldn't the plane know (via gps etc) that it was speeding itself towards a crash site?

if autopilot isn't engaged and there have been no pilot inputs for x time should the plane say hang on, danger will robinson, and kick in

I'm struggling to understand in this day and age how a passenger plane can fly into a mountain, its a pretty simple calculation, it knows how high up it is, it knows there is no landing beacon near by, it knows its going too fast, and it knows more or less where the ground is, I'd assume every alarm in the cockpit was sounding and it was lit up like a christmas tree so why not take over control?
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Old 25.03.2015, 16:53
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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for those in the know,

Do these planes not have failsafe devices? if there was a sudden decompression couldn't the plane turn on autopilot?
The Autopilot was on and remained on. Hence the unchanged trajectory (while the controlled decent probably will show that one of the pilots initiated it before passing out)
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Wouldn't the plane know (via gps etc) that it was speeding itself towards a crash site?
Yes it knew and made audible warnings but probably pilots were dead by than to react
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if autopilot isn't engaged and there have been no pilot inputs for x time should the plane say hang on, danger will robinson, and kick in
If no autopilot, plane will fly its course. There is a maneuvre that certain planes can do on their own, to avoid terrain but wouldn't have helped here. The plane still needs somebody to command it what to do
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I'm struggling to understand in this day and age how a passenger plane can fly into a mountain, its a pretty simple calculation, it knows how high up it is, it knows there is no landing beacon near by, it knows its going too fast, and it knows more or less where the ground is, I'd assume every alarm in the cockpit was sounding and it was lit up like a christmas tree so why not take over control?
Because most likely pilots were dead or unconscious. Planes are sophisticated but it can not think for itself.

The "lucky" part of this tragedy is that the plane didn't continue or crashed over inhabited area. It is pretty scary that a 150 ton aircraft was flying at will over Europe in broad daylight.
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Old 25.03.2015, 16:57
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

it wouldn't need to 'think' for itself, just do a calculation, see it was heading for a crash, sound alarms, no input or override so level up, climb out of danger, continue level flight while sending every warning possible to ATC and maybe pump in some oxygen to the pilots
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Old 25.03.2015, 16:57
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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The Autopilot was on and remained on. Hence the unchanged trajectory (while the controlled decent probably will show that one of the pilots initiated it before passing out)


Yes it knew and made audible warnings but probably pilots were dead by than to react


If no autopilot, plane will fly its course. There is a maneuvre that certain planes can do on their own, to avoid terrain but wouldn't have helped here. The plane still needs somebody to command it what to do


Because most likely pilots were dead or unconscious. Planes are sophisticated but it can not think for itself.

The "lucky" part of this tragedy is that the plane didn't continue or crashed over inhabited area. It is pretty scary that a 150 ton aircraft was flying at will over Europe in broad daylight.
And you know all this how exactly?
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Old 25.03.2015, 17:03
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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for those in the know,

Do these planes not have failsafe devices? if there was a sudden decompression couldn't the plane turn on autopilot?

Wouldn't the plane know (via gps etc) that it was speeding itself towards a crash site?

if autopilot isn't engaged and there have been no pilot inputs for x time should the plane say hang on, danger will robinson, and kick in

I'm struggling to understand in this day and age how a passenger plane can fly into a mountain, its a pretty simple calculation, it knows how high up it is, it knows there is no landing beacon near by, it knows its going too fast, and it knows more or less where the ground is, I'd assume every alarm in the cockpit was sounding and it was lit up like a christmas tree so why not take over control?


Don't know about this particular aircraft, but some systems have an EDM button which puts the a/p in to emergency descent mode automatically but it is also supposed to level it off at 10000 and bring the speed back. Also turns the a/p 90degrees and that didn't seem to happen, although it did deviate course.
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Old 25.03.2015, 17:05
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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it wouldn't need to 'think' for itself, just do a calculation, see it was heading for a crash, sound alarms, no input or override so level up, climb out of danger, continue level flight while sending every warning possible to ATC and maybe pump in some oxygen to the pilots
It can do that already, but how far after it will reach if pilots can't regain consciousness? Eventually it will run out of fuel and crash. The problem is not the terrain, but pilots not "waking up" even when reaching breathable air altitude.

In this case, ATC figured something was wrong and sent a Mirage to intercept. Even with ATC knowing something was up they couldn't do much except spectate.

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And you know all this how exactly?
The facts I mentioned regarding aircraft systems (what can do, what can not do) I know them from school, the rest I am making educated guess of what most likely happened
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  #69  
Old 25.03.2015, 17:10
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

One of the victims was a Brit studying at the César Ritz college in Luzern.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32047308
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Old 25.03.2015, 17:11
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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it wouldn't need to 'think' for itself, just do a calculation, see it was heading for a crash, sound alarms, no input or override so level up, climb out of danger, continue level flight while sending every warning possible to ATC and maybe pump in some oxygen to the pilots
I'm not sure whether even the latest planes have ground level altitude maps that they can use to determine the altitude of ground below. AFAIK they only have ground proximity radar which alarms the pilot of high ground ahead. And climbing up might not be something that can be left to the autopilot to decide - it involves quite a few decisions like increasing thrust, changing wing configuration (flaps, leading slats, etc) which may not be a good idea in all situations. I'm speculating here though.

It's true that perhaps what's missing is a dead-man's switch - which there are in trains for instance. Not sure what is available in planes from that point of view.
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Old 25.03.2015, 18:09
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

all commercial airliners have a GPWS ground proximity warning system data base, this is updated often and we have to reload into the GPWS computer.

on the 320 series the autopilot can be engaged 5 seconds after weight off wheels and this is quite normal.

A few months ago EASA issued an emergency airworthiness directive to all airbus operators. An incident occurred where an AOA vane became stuck and the aircraft started a decent as per the alpha floor protection flight rules. The crew managed to recover the AC after some minutes. This is one of the more plausible theories.

If there is panic in the cockpit it is not too surprising communication was not made.

Until an initial report comes out it is all theories.
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Old 25.03.2015, 18:16
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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I'm not sure whether even the latest planes have ground level altitude maps that they can use to determine the altitude of ground below. AFAIK they only have ground proximity radar which alarms the pilot of high ground ahead. And climbing up might not be something that can be left to the autopilot to decide - it involves quite a few decisions like increasing thrust, changing wing configuration (flaps, leading slats, etc) which may not be a good idea in all situations. I'm speculating here though.

It's true that perhaps what's missing is a dead-man's switch - which there are in trains for instance. Not sure what is available in planes from that point of view.

Amazing things happen. A Kurdish Football Club from Borlange/Sweden was booked onto this airplane, but as they felt that the waiting time at Düsseldorf Airport was too long, they split into three groups and took three other planes with shorter transit times and are now well back. A young radio reporter from Düsseldorf and her friend were in Barcelona over the weekend and booked for this flight but at the airport RE-booked onto the evening flight, to enjoy Barcelona a bit longer -- and survived.




And here the place of Digne, apparently quite a nice town



Digne les bains, vue vers l'Est
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Old 25.03.2015, 18:31
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Amazing things happen. A Kurdish Football Club from Borlange/Sweden was booked onto this airplane, but as they felt that the waiting time at Düsseldorf Airport was too long, they split into three groups and took three other planes with shorter transit times and are now well back. A young radio reporter from Düsseldorf and her friend were in Barcelona over the weekend and booked for this flight but at the airport RE-booked onto the evening flight, to enjoy Barcelona a bit longer -- and survived.
Bookings and cancellations happen all the time. You don't tend to hear about the ones who rebooked onto a crashed plane at the last minute. I guess it's not quite as click-bait friendly.
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Old 25.03.2015, 18:32
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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it wouldn't need to 'think' for itself, just do a calculation, see it was heading for a crash, sound alarms, no input or override so level up, climb out of danger, continue level flight while sending every warning possible to ATC and maybe pump in some oxygen to the pilots
This is assuming the autopilot is getting the correct information from the sensors.

There are two passive sensors that I can think of that the autopilot on an Airbus would need in order to be able to fly the aircraft without pilot intervention - the angle of attack sensors and the airspeed sensors (pitots). There are redundancies for these sensors but it has happened in the past that all redundancies have failed due to icing. If that happens then the autopilot will disengage and pass control back to the pilots - it simply cannot fly the airplane without this information. In fact in the case of Airbus it will degrade from normal law to mechanical law - basically seat of the pants flying, and when in this mode you need to adjust pitch with elevator trim, not the control column on an Airbus - this is what allegedly screwed that air France flight that went down in the sea a few years back.
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Old 25.03.2015, 19:12
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

Nothing alleged about it.. plus the crew didn't have a clue and the pilot ignored weather warnings.

Most common cause of crashes is 'controlled flight into terrain' aka pilot error
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Old 25.03.2015, 19:28
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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it wouldn't need to 'think' for itself, just do a calculation, see it was heading for a crash, sound alarms, no input or override so level up, climb out of danger, continue level flight while sending every warning possible to ATC and maybe pump in some oxygen to the pilots

The google car has not been released yet, don't think the google airliner is likely in the near future...


[insert large toothy smile emotiocon]
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Old 25.03.2015, 19:40
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

So. the balck box is badly damaged and it may take time to interpret the findings?

I just hope that the maintenance report is published and that nothing gets switched out.

"In the first crash of a new 'Fly-By-Wire' aircraft, the Airbus A320-100 impacted trees while performing a fly-by at an airshow and burst into flames. The crew, and Air France maintenance officials, have all been sentenced to probation for manslaughter; the Captain has been imprisoned. Evidence, including photographs, has now been exposed that an Airbus official at the scene switched the Digital Flight Data Recorder before the court hearing.
Since May 1998, it is proven that the Flight Data Recorder was switched after the accident. The Lausanne Institute of Police Forensic Evidence and Criminology (IPSC) comes to the conclusion that the recorder presented to the Court is NOT the one taken from the aircraft after the accident. "

http://www.airdisaster.com/investiga...96/af296.shtml
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Old 25.03.2015, 20:03
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

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Bookings and cancellations happen all the time. You don't tend to hear about the ones who rebooked onto a crashed plane at the last minute. I guess it's not quite as click-bait friendly.

No of course no news about people who re-booked onto the failed flight, but about two German businessmen who WERE on this flight by coincidence, two famous opera singers from Düsseldorf, the strange fact that those of that schoolclass who were on the flight had won their trip to Barcelona in a kind of lottery.


And beside Dignes, also BARCELONETTE (the small Barcelona) is near the Crash site


Place Manuel

Coat of arms




more and more Details about passengers and almost-to-be-passengers become known


Many media people realize that all what real and wannabe experts say is just Chat and nothing of substance. The investigations of the DGAC will take many a month to come


************************************************** *********************************


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Nothing alleged about it.. plus the crew didn't have a clue and the pilot ignored weather warnings.

Most common cause of crashes is 'controlled flight into terrain' aka pilot error
A) all reports say that the weather in Southern France was alright or even good
B) nobody up to now could explain why the plane during 8 minutes dropped by 1000 (one-thousand) meters per minute
C) the A320 can also fly safely in critical weather


************************************************** ************************************




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So. the balck box is badly damaged and it may take time to interpret the findings?

I just hope that the maintenance report is published and that nothing gets switched out.

"In the first crash of a new 'Fly-By-Wire' aircraft, the Airbus A320-100 impacted trees while performing a fly-by at an airshow and burst into flames. The crew, and Air France maintenance officials, have all been sentenced to probation for manslaughter; the Captain has been imprisoned. Evidence, including photographs, has now been exposed that an Airbus official at the scene switched the Digital Flight Data Recorder before the court hearing.
Since May 1998, it is proven that the Flight Data Recorder was switched after the accident. The Lausanne Institute of Police Forensic Evidence and Criminology (IPSC) comes to the conclusion that the recorder presented to the Court is NOT the one taken from the aircraft after the accident. "

http://www.airdisaster.com/investiga...96/af296.shtml

the second Blackbox was found this morning and now is also with the DGAC in Paris, and according to some reports under the supervision of the Police Judiciaire

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Old 25.03.2015, 20:04
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

German wings uses AMOS as a maintenance and task planning tool. The authorities have full access to this and it is 'locked' if there is an incident.
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Old 25.03.2015, 20:54
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Re: GermanWings A320 Down Near Digne, French Alps

I can't begin to imagine the grief of those parents. I would find the pain unendurable. I just hope that they can find some solace in each other.
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