http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015...ist-corruption

The aftermath is all too similar to me, but the cruelty of the war itself and the complete impunity of the aggressors...

Bullshit article.

Tom

Indeed

From one of the comments about the article;

"your whitewashing of the atrocities committed by Ho Chi Minh is an astounding piece of propaganda dressed up as journalism.
From the murder of hundreds of thousands of intellectuals and incorrectly and arbitrarily categorized Landlords in "land reform" programs before the war in the north to I am sure 20 years of unreported slaughter after the communists took over Ho Chi Minh was a mass murderer ruling through death squads and the imposition of a total personality cult comparable to Kim Jong in Korea today.
The fact that over a million people fled North Korea after the Geneva accords to the south before the Viet Cong stopped people leaving speaks for itself. "

Ironically, I know more Vietnamese speakers in Switzerland than English speakers.

My wife's ex is Vietnamese, so her kids are half, and they have something like 22 cousins.

Of course, I speak Italian with all of them.

Tom

"You don't know, man ....... "



[what do you expect - it is The Guardian]

Another point of view is that the two colonial wars in Vietnam took 30 years and about 3-4 mln of lives, mostly civilians, with 3mln killed between '55 and '75.
Mostly by air forces of the Western allies. What logic defends this?

Blame the French - it was their territory to lose - but they couldn't control the move towards communism.
The US were originally only present in an advisory capacity - until the French lost the plot and turned tail and ran, leaving Uncle Sam to sort out the mess.

That the commies were scum?

Obviously, all the Vietnamese that I know have escaped, and are from the south.

None are sad to be here under Swiss capitalism.

Tom

Indeed.

All the Vietnamese I know HATE the French, but love the Amis, go figure.

Tom

Then meet these you don't:
http://mobile2.tagesanzeiger.ch/arti...da8b79a0000001

Great article, IMO.

I'm not sure why it's received here as 'bullshit' - which part? Ho Chi Minh was a mass murderer, sure...but this article doesn't dispute that or sympathize with him or the communists - for me it reinforces the fact that communism is merely an ideal that, mixed with the inevitable corruption of people/politicians, turns completely insane. Ho Chi Minh may have executed hundreds of thousands, but that doesn't make the article any less valid.

Neither side can rightfully claim a moral high ground - it's just another playing out of the eternal power struggle of humanity.

Both two major Swiss newspapers, NZZ and TA, have articles about the atrocities of this war, but NYT has just buried a small link to an opinion one.

Sorry, but it's late and I can't be bothered to read German BS.

English, French or Italian, please.

Tom

In the last sentence of the article in the link you posted - the Vietnamese guy says "I do not hate anybody", so what is the point you are making about hate

See the pictures - of "agent orange" harm. They're worth more than thousands of words.

The crop spraying was started at the request of the President Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam.

It is also worth mentioning that 40,000 US soldiers have made disability claims based on exposure to Agent Orange.

Would you care to expand on your dismissal Tom?

Remember the famous picture of the last Huey on the roof of the American Embassy getting people out of Saigon as the NVA were advancing? My old friend was the second last pilot to fly out of there and back to a carrier. He enjoyed a long career in Saudi Arabia, married a Vietnamese woman and now lives in the city he still calls "Saigon".

My wife knows the girl in the famous photo.

Just saying.

Tom

I think I picked up a couple of pointers from this article:

-The Guardian has trouble putting the two words, "Communist" and "Corruption", right next to each other.
-You can build up more drama in a story if you omit the atrocities of one side and emphasize the other.
-Its not that they had a bad plan. It just that it was not implementable. Besides, it was probably sabotaged by "the West".
-Its not that there were bad decisions. Its just that the incentives were more valuable and more interesting.
-If there is Inequality, then it must Neoliberalism.
-Of course the communists had the brains and inspiration to run things. Its just that the smart people left, and they just ran into some bad luck, that's all.
-If they would only have stayed isolationist, they could still claim they are winning today, like North Korea.
-Its not that the ideology was flawed, it just that it was not realistic.

Thanks Guardian! Does the article say anything about the Vietnamese?

Just after the Vietnam War, as a result of China and Russia falling out, and Vietnam siding with Russia, Vietnam was attacked by China in the North, and China encouraged the Khmer Rouge to attack from the West. Due to the experience gained from fighting the Americans, the Vietnamese army handled these incursions without difficulty. This finally led to the downfall of the Khmer Rouge regime.

If the Americans hadn't so well "trained" the VPA, who knows what would have happened.

1. This "president" was a dictator who came to power with US support and 600.000 votes in an election of 450.000 voters...

2. I have a hard time feeling half as bad for the soldiers who were exposed to agent orange than I do for the civilians who did nothing wrong but work in their fields. And I don't think too many Vietnamese could make disability claims to the US government, could they?