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  #41  
Old 23.06.2015, 12:40
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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In other news. The Swiss Federal Council thinks about legalizing Mealworms, Crickets, and Locust for restaurant consumption. http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/26749574
Crickets, locusts and mealworms could be on Swiss menus and supermarket shelves next year, after being given the green light by the Federal Food Safety and Veterinary Office.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/nutritio...lates/41506724

Tom
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  #42  
Old 23.06.2015, 12:42
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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The cruelty side is I think of most question to modern morals. It is true that society is evolving where past practices are no longer considered acceptable.

Switzerland is commonly considered in the forefront of animals rights---to such an extent, people from developing countries think we are batsh*t crazy!

The question is: where's the limit. Here people are happy to pay a hefty price on beef with the piece of mind that it was butchered 'nicely'. But still happily boil lobster alive and other sea food.

Recent studies are indicating that plant matter also have intricate sensory systems and can feel pain. What will the vegans do then? Should we just fast track to a soylent green type source of sustenance?
For me the start is to acknowledge that we have no moral right to take a life to sustain our own. That's not to say that it's not a necessity, and although I'm vegetarian if it ever came down to me and Bambi, Bambi is getting it but in the quickest and most humane manner I can devise.

What I find obnoxious is the attitude that we have a right to kill animals because we are bigger, stronger or more intelligent than they are. And more than that, that we don't have any obligations to minimise suffering.
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  #43  
Old 23.06.2015, 12:45
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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For me the start is to acknowledge that we have no moral right to take a life to sustain our own.
Yes, we do.

Tom
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Old 23.06.2015, 13:09
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

You are missing the point of the thread.


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Crickets, locusts and mealworms could be on Swiss menus and supermarket shelves next year, after being given the green light by the Federal Food Safety and Veterinary Office.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/nutritio...lates/41506724

Tom
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Old 23.06.2015, 13:13
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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You are missing the point of the thread.
From what I have gathered, you have no point and you take no sides. You just spread information. Right?
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  #46  
Old 23.06.2015, 13:27
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

glinaa, wrong.

Apologies, I assumed it wouldn't be so hard to stick to the topic

If you read my original post, you can see it was about making others aware of this dog festival, perhaps even get others to reach out to help the individuals/orgs involved in saving the dogs. (Thus, it was not about distinguishing the morality of animal cruelty based on different types of animals; neither was it about the prospect of insects in our food)

It's great that so many have joined in to discuss. I see there are a lot of ignorant views, but I expected that. What I didn't expect was some hijacking a thread to take the topic to another direction, for the sake of sensationalism. I'm happy to discuss other animal related topics, but maybe it would make more sense to open a new thread, stick to one topic at a time and ideally make well-researched claims.
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  #47  
Old 23.06.2015, 13:38
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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glinaa, wrong.

Apologies, I assumed it wouldn't be so hard to stick to the topic

If you read my original post, you can see it was about making others aware of this dog festival, perhaps even get others to reach out to help the individuals/orgs involved in saving the dogs. (Thus, it was not about distinguishing the morality of animal cruelty based on different types of animals; neither was it about the prospect of insects in our food)

It's great that so many have joined in to discuss. I see there are a lot of ignorant views, but I expected that. What I didn't expect was some hijacking a thread to take the topic to another direction, for the sake of sensationalism. I'm happy to discuss other animal related topics, but maybe it would make more sense to open a new thread, stick to one topic at a time and ideally make well-researched claims.
Lorena, if I you want my honest opinion: I don't think we can talk about animal rights in a country that doesn't quite respect human rights.
I mean, it is an unnecessary cruelty against dogs/animals (stolen or not stolen), but don't expect they'll change overnight some customs - e.g. this festival.
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  #48  
Old 23.06.2015, 13:56
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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If you read my original post, you can see it was about making others aware of this dog festival
I was already aware of it, and as much as I would like to attend, it's a bit out of my way.

Tom
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Old 23.06.2015, 14:20
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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If you read my original post, you can see it was about making others aware of this dog festival, perhaps even get others to reach out to help the individuals/orgs involved in saving the dogs. (Thus, it was not about distinguishing the morality of animal cruelty based on different types of animals; neither was it about the prospect of insects in our food)
Do you want to cancel the YuLIn festival or just to give this year's rescused dogs a good home ?
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Old 23.06.2015, 15:26
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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Do you want to cancel the YuLIn festival or just to give this year's rescused dogs a good home ?
Preferably both.
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  #51  
Old 23.06.2015, 16:09
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

I usually try to avoid heated animal welfare debates on EF, except of course for my endless sermons on dog ownership issues in Switzerland , as this really isn't a receptive audience. But nonetheless:

I was involved in dog rescue work in Guangzhou (and HK). This was almost 20 years ago, but the issues faced back then are similar to those today. While the current situation is not what I would want it to be (but then, neither is it in most of the western world, including Switzerland), it should be stressed that improvements have indeed been made.

If I learned anything from my time in Guangzhou it is that working within the system, within the culture, is most effective.

I would urge anyone who is interested in animal welfare issues in China to get in touch with one of the grass roots groups working 'on the ground' to offer whatever support you can. Change starts locally.

Actually, this applies to most animal welfare work anywhere in the world.
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Old 23.06.2015, 16:49
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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I usually try to avoid heated animal welfare debates on EF, except of course for my endless sermons on dog ownership issues in Switzerland , as this really isn't a receptive audience. But nonetheless:

I was involved in dog rescue work in Guangzhou (and HK). This was almost 20 years ago, but the issues faced back then are similar to those today. While the current situation is not what I would want it to be (but then, neither is it in most of the western world, including Switzerland), it should be stressed that improvements have indeed been made.

If I learned anything from my time in Guangzhou it is that working within the system, within the culture, is most effective.

I would urge anyone who is interested in animal welfare issues in China to get in touch with one of the grass roots groups working 'on the ground' to offer whatever support you can. Change starts locally.

Actually, this applies to most animal welfare work anywhere in the world.
As always, the voice of reason. Thank you meloncollie.
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  #53  
Old 24.06.2015, 10:51
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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I usually try to avoid heated animal welfare debates on EF, except of course for my endless sermons on dog ownership issues in Switzerland , as this really isn't a receptive audience. But nonetheless:

I was involved in dog rescue work in Guangzhou (and HK). This was almost 20 years ago, but the issues faced back then are similar to those today. While the current situation is not what I would want it to be (but then, neither is it in most of the western world, including Switzerland), it should be stressed that improvements have indeed been made.

If I learned anything from my time in Guangzhou it is that working within the system, within the culture, is most effective.

I would urge anyone who is interested in animal welfare issues in China to get in touch with one of the grass roots groups working 'on the ground' to offer whatever support you can. Change starts locally.

Actually, this applies to most animal welfare work anywhere in the world.
I actually admire the fact that you believe so strongly in animal welfare and also take your time to write those "sermons" as you call them. I like people who have this kind of convictions and don't let the nay sayers stop them trying to do their best for the cause. So please, keep writing those "sermons", I personally find them very useful.
Re. China though, although I realise that those dogs are butchered in horrific conditions, I don't quite know if this dog meat eating habit could be stopped, since it is part of the culture. Many people brought up the classic argument "why pigs could be eaten but not dogs" and I can't help but think they too have a point. Which are the goals of animal welfare organisations in China?
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Old 24.06.2015, 11:21
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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NotAllThere, Journalists put that in, because their obligation is to be truthful.
If you honestly believe that journalists are generally truthful and accurate, and never put their own individual spin on stories to reflect their own opinions or to make the story more "juicy", then you are deluded.

I am confused, however. Can you say which of these you object to:
1. Eating dogs at all
2. Cruelty to dogs before slaughtering them
3. Kidnapping pets for eating
4. Rounding up stray dogs for eating
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Old 24.06.2015, 11:29
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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If you honestly believe that journalists are generally truthful and accurate, and never put their own individual spin on stories to reflect their own opinions or to make the story more "juicy", then you are deluded.

I am confused, however. Can you say which of these you object to:
1. Eating dogs at all
2. Cruelty to dogs before slaughtering them
3. Kidnapping pets for eating
4. Rounding up stray dogs for eating
I'm inclined to believe that even that is a wishful thing as far as journalists morality/ethics is concerned, and the sad truth is in most cases they are just payed to advance certain agendas. (let's not forget NGO's have a budget on their hands) Says the cynic in me.
Anyway, good questions. I would also like to know the answers.
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Old 24.06.2015, 17:12
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

Well that has escalated quickly.

Unnecessary cruelty to animals and humans has no place in society. It is not naive to address and combat everyday life sadism.

I shouldn’t have to explain why the Chinese dog eating festival is an abomination.

If you do not see what’s wrong / feel a cold indifference about it, I doubt my words will have any effect in changing that.

Addressing a news topic on animal cruelty does not mean I have to repeatedly justify my reasons behind exposing it.

Want to know which of the things on your list I object to? Read my past posts. I am sure you will manage to find the answer to your questions there. Let me know if you need a hint

Could you show me where I said I believed all journalists were truthful and accurate?

If you refer to my answer on your question, the sentence referred specifically to the article I quoted.

Yes, I agree the media is a biased and powerful tool that influences people. Naturally, we have to judge each news story on its own merits and consult several news outlets to inch closer to the truth.

My thread was about a well-documented festival though, so I am surprised you twisted it to make harsh remarks and call me deluded for bringing this to light.

Now if you still refuse to believe that a majority of the dogs and cats were stolen, after these claims were backed by several sources, there is no point trying to change your mind.

greenmount, indeed it is a cultural phenomenon, similar to such traditions as eating tiger penis or rhino horn for medicinal purposes (both of which are now outlawed). Of course outlawed doesn’t mean eradicated (yet), but thanks to collaborations between local government and international orgs, certain tiger populations are growing again. It is possible to change even the most deeply rooted traditions, especially if you educate people on superstitions / the negative impact of their actions.
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Old 24.06.2015, 17:48
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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Which are the goals of animal welfare organisations in China?
Bearing in mind that there are many different groups, each with it's own goals and policies... but I'll point to AnimalsAsia, an organization that I very much admire and support:

(I'm not affiliated with them, by the way.)

Animals Asia works closely with many local groups, providing support, resources, etc. to help these groups in their own, locally focused missions. An outsider can easily be dismissed as 'not understanding our culture' - but local voices take on great weight.

Much of their work focuses on changing hearts and minds, encouraging people to change the way dogs are viewed. "Friends, not food" was a slogan used for many years.

Towards that end, two programs that have been very effective are Dr Dog and Professor Paws. Dr Dog is similar to the PAT Dog (Pets As Therapy) program in our societies, where dogs and their owners visit patients in hospitals and nursing homes, offering comfort and support. The goal of the Professor Paws program is to bring dogs into the schools, allow the children to learn about dogs, enjoy spending time with them. Both programs allow people who otherwise might not have any interaction with dogs to see their value as companions and helpers rather than seeing them as vermin or food.

Changing attitudes is the heart of their mission. Without a change in the way animals are viewed, welfare work is ends up something akin to sticking your thumb in the dike. One must to first change how animals are viewed if one wants to change how they are treated.

(The same is true of animal welfare work in the rest of the world, by the way.)

I am most familiar with their work helping dogs, but Animals Asia runs many other programs, from CCR (Catch, castrate, release) to try to reduce the stray cat (and dog) situation to tackling other animal welfare issues such as traficking in endangered species, the bear bile trade, etc.
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Old 24.06.2015, 17:57
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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...blah....
I'll take that as

I am confused, however. Can you say which of these you object to:
1. Eating dogs at all

Yes

2. Cruelty to dogs before slaughtering them
Yes

3. Kidnapping pets for eating
Yes

4. Rounding up stray dogs for eating
Yes

I'm with you on points 2-4. Point 4 because it's hardly sanitary. But I don't think that eating dogs, per se, is a crime against nature.

HTH, BFIDI.
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Old 24.06.2015, 17:59
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

Imagine you feed your dog food that contains pork.
Pigs are just as intelligent as dogs.
Yet, eating pork is not an issue while eating dog is wrong.
Is this only because dogs look cute?
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Old 24.06.2015, 21:36
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Re: Animals rescued from China's YuLin Festival

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Imagine you feed your dog food that contains pork.
Pigs are just as intelligent as dogs.
Yet, eating pork is not an issue while eating dog is wrong.
Is this only because dogs look cute?
once again for the hard of thinking, straw man argument.
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