Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #161  
Old 30.06.2015, 12:30
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy Wellies
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 8,715
Groaned at 54 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 9,623 Times in 3,557 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

All this fighting.

Can't we all just agree that women's smaller and more feable minds make them unsuitable for science, but that women themselves are lovely?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank mirfield for this useful post:
  #162  
Old 30.06.2015, 13:02
me.anon's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: thun
Posts: 2,061
Groaned at 41 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 2,710 Times in 1,311 Posts
me.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
All this fighting.

Can't we all just agree that women's smaller and more feable minds make them unsuitable for science, but that women themselves are lovely?
Indeed, but they can probably spell better than their male counterparts.
Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 30.06.2015, 13:04
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
All this fighting.

Can't we all just agree that women's smaller and more feable minds make them unsuitable for science, but that women themselves are lovely?
... of course, and we all know why they have smaller feet, don't we...

(.........)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #164  
Old 30.06.2015, 13:12
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
The figures can be mostly explained by the individual choices made by women and the remaining discrepancy has not been proven to be related to gender discrimination. What are you even going on about? Those figures mean nothing but, of course, rabid feminists are not prepared to see this and use them deliberately to attack an imaginary patriarchy. It is you who seems bitter! Penis envy is bad for you, you know?
Why should I be bitter? I am one of the few here who grew up with an amazing working mother who told me anything is possible- and one who managed to go to Uni as an adult once my kids were at school, and go up the ladder very quickly, and who brought up my daughters to believe the same, and they did brilliantly. So no, no bitterness for me- but I know my mum was amazing and way before her time, my OH was amazingly supportive, and my colleagues too. But I've spent the last 64 years looking around me, and realising just how lucky I was/am as a woman. Therefore not a rabbid feminist, but a realist and yes. also re women being their own worst enemies often re career and promotion.

Mind you, at my uni entrance interview, the woman lecturer, who happened to know OH, asked me 'how does your husband feel about you going back to Uni- hasn't he got enough on his plate already?' ... and when I applied for my 3rd promotion job- the Head of dept., again a woman, said the same they both got short shrift- and I got both, uni entrance and the pro job , then took over her senior post when she moved on.

Your posts in the past have shown great bitterness towards women sadly, for whatever reasons. Leave it at that.

Last edited by Odile; 30.06.2015 at 14:51.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #165  
Old 30.06.2015, 13:25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 486
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 438 Times in 226 Posts
mgosia has an excellent reputationmgosia has an excellent reputationmgosia has an excellent reputationmgosia has an excellent reputation
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Ah well, just more evidence confirming this research which shows "pile of evidence saying "sexism is a major problem [in STEM fields]" makes a bunch of male-identifying commenters foam at the mouth"
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mgosia for this useful post:
  #166  
Old 30.06.2015, 13:29
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 11,952
Groaned at 90 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 18,201 Times in 8,089 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
... of course, and we all know why they have smaller feet, don't we...

(.........)
So they can stand nearer to the lab table?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #167  
Old 30.06.2015, 13:53
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 293
Groaned at 102 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 235 Times in 134 Posts
Krash357 is considered unworthyKrash357 is considered unworthyKrash357 is considered unworthyKrash357 is considered unworthy
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
... of course, and we all know why they have smaller feet, don't we...

(.........)
So they can shove them up their own ass wut
Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 30.06.2015, 14:05
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,104
Groaned at 31 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 4,890 Times in 2,212 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
Ah well, just more evidence confirming this research which shows "pile of evidence saying "sexism is a major problem [in STEM fields]" makes a bunch of male-identifying commenters foam at the mouth"
Definitely an interesting read, but I would hesitate to make general conclusions based on internet comments (probably why it was published in Journal with an impact factor of less that 2 )
Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 30.06.2015, 14:08
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,172
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
... makes a bunch of male-identifying commenters foam at the mouth"
This is exactly this kind of comment that make people doubt very much that it really is about equality... When a drag wants to be accepted by the in-laws, he doesn't show up in full drag attire. The world has so much to learn from drag queens (To Adrianlondon: jokes allowed, a couple of easy ones for you there).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #170  
Old 30.06.2015, 14:41
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 7,955
Groaned at 326 Times in 269 Posts
Thanked 10,266 Times in 5,419 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
Ah well, just more evidence confirming this research which shows "pile of evidence saying "sexism is a major problem [in STEM fields]" makes a bunch of male-identifying commenters foam at the mouth"
Somebody impersonating a female poster need not be female, same goes for male posters. Actually, all comments could originate from one person alone.

Did the authors make sure the data are correct and allow conclusions on the issue you want to investigate? Did they use electronic differentiation mechanisms? The article mentions no such thing, which may mean that the study has anecdotal value at best.
Reply With Quote
  #171  
Old 30.06.2015, 15:13
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,104
Groaned at 31 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 4,890 Times in 2,212 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
Somebody impersonating a female poster need not be female, same goes for male posters. Actually, all comments could originate from one person alone.....
Obligatory oldschool comic:

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Chemmie for this useful post:
  #172  
Old 30.06.2015, 15:45
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
So they can stand nearer to the lab table?
They're referred to as lab benches, not lab tables. I've never come across anyone calling it a lab table.

I remember a couple of years ago when my department was hiring a new technical specialist. There's only 4 of these positions in Europe, so competition is ridiculous. We had an agency deal with the applications (simply because there was thousands, from around the world). Because the other three were taken by men, it was decided that there was a preference for a woman. In theory, this was fine. In practice, not so. Of the top three candidates, selected without identifying information (withheld by the agency), all were male. They couldn't be hired. So we asked the agency for the top 10. Also all male. We ended up hiring the 14th best qualified person for the role.

She lasted 4 months. The simple fact was that she was too far out of her depth, and couldn't manage the stress, workload, and expectation. Serious questions were asked as to why the 14th best person was hired, instead of the best person (who was, incidentally, perfect for the role, having done something similar at a competitor). In the end, it came down to HR setting a quota.

Now, I've no doubt that had the 14th best person been a male, the chance of the car crash would likely be the same. But, the fact was that in order to fill a quota, we were forced to hire someone who was not good enough. It was a giant waste of money (training costs alone were 6 digits), and in the end, we were left out of pocket with nothing to show for it. Our business suffered because of a quota being forced upon us.

I realise that the fact you had to go 14 down the list to find a woman is not a good thing - there would, in an ideal world, be 3 men and 3 women in the top 6. But trying to address the balance by forcing quotas on institutions and enterprises is stupid - there is no winner. Its just a way for people to beat their chest and pretend they're doing something about the gender imbalance, when in reality they're trying to stuff a round peg into a square hole, until either the hole or the peg breaks.

Incidentally, we reopened the position a month later. It was filled by a male, who was the best fit (not the original best fit - he got headhunted). He's still here and doing well. I did find out that the girl who had the job for 4 months ended up leaving science altogether.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #173  
Old 30.06.2015, 15:52
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,768
Groaned at 227 Times in 191 Posts
Thanked 22,431 Times in 9,525 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post

I remember a couple of years ago when my department was hiring a new technical specialist. There's only 4 of these positions in Europe, so competition is ridiculous. We had an agency deal with the applications (simply because there was thousands, from around the world). Because the other three were taken by men, it was decided that there was a preference for a woman. In theory, this was fine. In practice, not so. Of the top three candidates, selected without identifying information (withheld by the agency), all were male. They couldn't be hired. So we asked the agency for the top 10. Also all male. We ended up hiring the 14th best qualified person for the role.

She lasted 4 months. The simple fact was that she was too far out of her depth, and couldn't manage the stress, workload, and expectation. Serious questions were asked as to why the 14th best person was hired, instead of the best person (who was, incidentally, perfect for the role, having done something similar at a competitor). In the end, it came down to HR setting a quota.

Now, I've no doubt that had the 14th best person been a male, the chance of the car crash would likely be the same. But, the fact was that in order to fill a quota, we were forced to hire someone who was not good enough. It was a giant waste of money (training costs alone were 6 digits), and in the end, we were left out of pocket with nothing to show for it. Our business suffered because of a quota being forced upon us.

I realise that the fact you had to go 14 down the list to find a woman is not a good thing - there would, in an ideal world, be 3 men and 3 women in the top 6. But trying to address the balance by forcing quotas on institutions and enterprises is stupid - there is no winner. Its just a way for people to beat their chest and pretend they're doing something about the gender imbalance, when in reality they're trying to stuff a round peg into a square hole, until either the hole or the peg breaks.

Incidentally, we reopened the position a month later. It was filled by a male, who was the best fit (not the original best fit - he got headhunted). He's still here and doing well. I did find out that the girl who had the job for 4 months ended up leaving science altogether.
I think that if there were 1000s of applications, and assuming most of them weren't frivolous or nonsensical stuff from time wasters, then the difference between the 1st and 2 nd and 3rd and even 14th best would be so minuscule as to make no practical difference.

Assuming 1000s means something like 3000, number 14 is within the top 0.5 percentile, and that in a population of people who are already more apt for the job than the average as otherwise (most of them) would not apply.

It would be a bit like saying that the person who ranked 14th in the London Marathon is obviously not much of an athlete.

The bigger question here would be to ask what was wrong with the evaluatiuon process that an obviously unsuitable candidate made it place number 14?
Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 30.06.2015, 15:53
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
Ah well, just more evidence confirming this research which shows "pile of evidence saying "sexism is a major problem [in STEM fields]" makes a bunch of male-identifying commenters foam at the mouth"
So, the basis is comments on an internet story? Thats like building a complete picture of the human race based on comments underneath a youtube video.

Shoddy research methods with the conclusion determined beforehand. If this is evidence, your case is paper thin.

There's plenty of good evidence out there - use that to support your point instead. This is just, well, embarrassing and self-defeating.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #175  
Old 30.06.2015, 15:59
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
I think that if there were 1000s of applications, and assuming most of them weren't frivolous or nonsensical stuff from time wasters, then the difference between the 1st and 2 nd and 3rd and even 14th best would be so minuscule as to make no practical difference.

The bigger question here would be to ask what was wrong with the evaluatiuon process that an obviously unsuitable candidate made it place number 14?
The role called for somebody with specific scientific skills, but not necessarily with the complete training (consider that there was a 6-figure training budget for the new hire). We wanted somebody who had the raw materials, but who could be trained and developed in house. Demanding somebody with the specific training would likely have restricted us massively.

The top 15 all had these basic skills, though those in the top 3 and 10 seemed to have them developed much more. The top 3 certainly had experience on their side.

The fact that training was offered, and it was a lucrative position meant there were so many applicants. There was, as you say, lots of nonsensical/frivolous/not the right experience ones. They were bottom of the pile.

Regarding your marathon comment - we didn't want a professional marathon runner. If we got one, great, but we originally wanted someone who could handle themselves reasonably well in a marathon, while at the same time being able to have the raw skills and traits required to become the marathon winner.

Last edited by J2488; 30.06.2015 at 16:02. Reason: Original post edited.
Reply With Quote
  #176  
Old 30.06.2015, 22:44
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,319
Groaned at 314 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 13,258 Times in 6,898 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
Serious questions were asked as to why the 14th best person was hired, instead of the best person (who was, incidentally, perfect for the role, having done something similar at a competitor). In the end, it came down to HR setting a quota.
.
And this is how urban myths are born. Gender "quotas" are recommended, not imposed.... unless you work for some state socialist "enterprise"...
If that person passed all the interviews and the recruiting committee (assuming there was one) agreed on hiring the problem is theirs...as simple as that. But we all know that things that you and a couple of others have described do rarely happen in real life...
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #177  
Old 01.07.2015, 10:02
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,104
Groaned at 31 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 4,890 Times in 2,212 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Well when it comes down to it, if women were truly being paid less for identical performance. Many companies would only hire women. The savings would be immense. They all ready make many more questionable moves to save even less.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Chemmie for this useful post:
  #178  
Old 01.07.2015, 10:49
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 7,955
Groaned at 326 Times in 269 Posts
Thanked 10,266 Times in 5,419 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
And this is how urban myths are born. Gender "quotas" are recommended, not imposed.... unless you work for some state socialist "enterprise"...
If that person passed all the interviews and the recruiting committee (assuming there was one) agreed on hiring the problem is theirs...as simple as that. But we all know that things that you and a couple of others have described do rarely happen in real life...
Funny how you know what actually happened in a company you most probably don't even know the name of.
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 01.07.2015, 11:05
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

Quote:
View Post
And this is how urban myths are born. Gender "quotas" are recommended, not imposed.... unless you work for some state socialist "enterprise"...
If that person passed all the interviews and the recruiting committee (assuming there was one) agreed on hiring the problem is theirs...as simple as that. But we all know that things that you and a couple of others have described do rarely happen in real life...

I like how you think you know about the hiring practices about a company who's name I haven't even mentioned.


Recommended at one level means imposed at another level, don't be na´ve.


The point was that she didn't pass, at least not to the extent that the 13 candidates ahead of her did. But because she was a she, that didn't matter.
Reply With Quote
  #180  
Old 01.07.2015, 12:23
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy Wellies
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 8,715
Groaned at 54 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 9,623 Times in 3,557 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do women belong in Science?

What sort of company spends time ranking at least 14 people for a single position?

Are you sure the first 13 didn't decline due to corporate stupidity?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank mirfield for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do you trust Science(ists)? - Bible dun says nothing bout climate change. PlantHead General off-topic 32 28.10.2013 16:37
Women in science/technology in Europe RetiredInNH Education 1 03.10.2013 21:00
Where do Threads belong? Main Forum or Off-Topic? Longbyt Forum support 7 07.12.2011 20:40
The Science of Smooching: Why Men and Women Kiss Differently Doktor.B General off-topic 107 22.02.2011 17:21
Identity Concerns - where /which culture do you belong to? bluesky_2009 General off-topic 2 11.03.2010 20:30


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0