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  #201  
Old 03.09.2016, 16:13
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_migrant
"An economic migrant is someone who emigrates from one region to another to seek an improvement in living standards because the living conditions or job opportunities in the migrant's own region are not good."

I think it can be safely said that job opportunities and living standards in CH are significantly better than in Ireland.
Actually in my particular profession I would be paid higher and have greater purchasing power in Ireland than here so you also write from ignorance.

Nevertheless it would be very nice if you could stick to the topic and refrain from personal remarks. thanks.
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  #202  
Old 03.09.2016, 16:37
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Actually in my particular profession I would be paid higher and have greater purchasing power in Ireland than here so you also write from ignorance.

Nevertheless it would be very nice if you could stick to the topic and refrain from personal remarks. thanks.
My intention was to provide the definition of what an economic migrant is, and that it would apply to Irish immigrants coming to CH, not make a personal remark.

And in that process, I made a generalization about immigrants from Ireland, that you say was wrong and does not apply to you.
My bad.

Hope you will keep the same in mind, before making your next blanket assumption about immigrants from wherever.

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  #203  
Old 03.09.2016, 16:52
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Oh, oh, oh.... Merkel said she was misunderstood.

ANGELA MERKEL: I want a border control system 'modeled on the US'

Turns out she would rather have something like a wall.

Clarification in time for tomorrow's elections.
  #204  
Old 03.09.2016, 17:14
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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My intention was to provide the definition of what an economic migrant is, and that it would apply to Irish immigrants coming to CH, not make a personal remark.
First of all thanks for the humility - and no worries - we're just debating and kudos to you.

Secondly take another look at your own definition of "economic migrant":

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From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_migrant
"An economic migrant is someone who emigrates from one region to another to seek an improvement in living standards because the living conditions or job opportunities in the migrant's own region are not good."
It would be a very odd person indeed who would describe the living conditions or job opportunities in Ireland in the last 20 years as "not good".

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And in that process, I made a generalization about immigrants from Ireland, that you say was wrong and does not apply to you.
My bad.

Hope you will keep the same in mind, before making your next blanket assumption about immigrants from wherever.
I try not to make assumptions - I try to make observations and make inferrals based on data. It's remarkably liberating and I recommend it to everyone.

To get back to the topic do you not believe the prediction of the Syrian professor in Germany extremely likely to come to pass and if not why not ? :


http://www.economist.com/news/europe...ntegration-can

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Others are less sanguine, among them Germany’s best-known Syrian immigrant of an earlier generation, Bassam Tibi. The 72-year-old Mr Tibi was born into an aristocratic family in Damascus. He learned to recite the Koran as a child, and grew up imbibing the anti-Semitism that pervaded his environment. But in 1962 he came to Germany, studied with renowned German-Jewish philosophers such as Theodor Adorno and Max Horkheimer, and embraced the West’s tolerant and open society. As a professor of international relations at the University of Göttingen for four decades, he popularised the term “Euro-Islam”, arguing that Muslims can and should integrate by blending their traditional and adopted cultures into a secularised and modern faith.

But of late Mr Tibi has turned pessimistic. Mrs Merkel’s welcome last year, he thinks, could even turn Germany into a “failed state”. Recently, he spoke with ten young Syrians. “Two of them spoke German, were doing well, and reminded me of myself back then,” he says. “The other eight were telling me that ‘Allah gave us Germany as a refuge, not the Germans’.” Most Syrians and other Muslims, he now thinks, will never integrate, instead retreating into misogynistic, anti-Semitic and anti-democratic worldviews and segregating themselves in radicalised enclaves.
  #205  
Old 03.09.2016, 17:45
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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To get back to the topic do you not believe the prediction of the Syrian professor in Germany extremely likely to come to pass and if not why not ? :
Oh, that is the same man interviewed and written about in the Bazler Zeitung

http://bazonline.ch/ausland/europa/d...story/22916308

He's able to discuss this with candor because he's first of all Syrian and understands the refugees, and also discuss a level of reality that we out here are not able to. Some people would disrupt such a conversation, and it may even be considered a crime in the UK as hate speech. Although this is exactly the level of communication and objectivity we need, the world and everybody, to better handle current affairs. Some people would rather we all head down a blind alley around all this. I think its quite clear now that PC censorship has failed, thankfully.

Last edited by Phos; 03.09.2016 at 17:58.
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  #206  
Old 03.09.2016, 18:43
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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To get back to the topic do you not believe the prediction of the Syrian professor in Germany extremely likely to come to pass and if not why not ? :


http://www.economist.com/news/europe...ntegration-can
From the same article you quoted...

Quote:
Mr Tibi, convinced that integration will fail, blames not only the refugees. The German government thinks the challenge of integration boils down to teaching refugees German and getting them jobs. But it is really about identity, he says, and this is where German society fails. During his own stints at American universities, he was always impressed by how quickly he felt a sense of belonging. In Germany, even after writing 30 books in German and marrying a German wife, people still make him feel foreign. “I suffer from an identity crisis, but I go to a psychoanalyst and lie on the couch,” Mr Tibi says. “These 16-year-olds go to Islamic State.”
...and if you look at his career, one of his more famous quotes is...

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When it comes to Europe, Tibi distinguishes positive and negative elements of European culture. The positive ones are, according to Tibi, enlightenment, pluralism, civil rights and secularization. Tibi argues that there is a need for Europe to defend these values, especially in times of globalization and migration from Muslim countries.[6] On the other hand, Tibi argues that racism is a European invention, and that Europeans must overcome what he calls "Euro-arrogance" and xenophobia to integrate immigrants.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassam_Tibi

It's strange how people can read the exact same article and shape it towards their feelings on an issue. It's similar to certain words changing their meaning depending on which vowel you put the emphasis on.

A lot of meaning is lost in the written word.

Whenever I find a schism in the interpretation of a written text, I try to let the person speak for themselves. Tibi has given very recent interviews in this issue in German, which are available on youtube, but for the sake of clarity, the lecture I've posted of his is in English.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvkRUyTCCJ4
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  #207  
Old 03.09.2016, 19:41
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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From the same article you quoted...



...and if you look at his career, one of his more famous quotes is...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassam_Tibi

It's strange how people can read the exact same article and shape it towards their feelings on an issue. It's similar to certain words changing their meaning depending on which vowel you put the emphasis on.

A lot of meaning is lost in the written word.

Whenever I find a schism in the interpretation of a written text, I try to let the person speak for themselves. Tibi has given very recent interviews in this issue in German, which are available on youtube, but for the sake of clarity, the lecture I've posted of his is in English.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvkRUyTCCJ4
I'm not sure what you are getting at with this post. If you believe what he says, than it just doubly validates the claim that Islamic integration into Europe is, in most or many cases, a lost cause. Blame could be placed on both the mentality of Muslim immigrants and the mentality of 'Euro-arrogance' and xenophobia.
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  #208  
Old 03.09.2016, 20:57
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_migrant
"An economic migrant is someone who emigrates from one region to another to seek an improvement in living standards because the living conditions or job opportunities in the migrant's own region are not good."

I think it can be safely said that job opportunities and living standards in CH are significantly better than in Ireland.
I do find it incredible how people on here still like to make the comparison between people who moved to work in Switzerland and those demanding to be let into Europe.

Just have a read through some of the threads on here. People have spent literally years trying to find a job in Switzerland. Exploring all possible avenues, learning languages, improving their skills set. It's virtually unheard of that people move here without a job offer, and of those that do, many end up having to go back to where they came from.

Comparing an IT worker on here to some khat chewing Somali in Calais, waiting to stowaway on the next Eddie Stobart wagon is beyond absurd.

Last edited by Loz1983; 03.09.2016 at 21:08.
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  #209  
Old 03.09.2016, 21:07
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Oh, that is the same man interviewed and written about in the Bazler Zeitung
http://bazonline.ch/ausland/europa/d...story/22916308
An interesting hypothesis of expiation/remorse. But I don't think this hypothesis is true because I don't see any sings of it, it seems it has been erased from their memory already.

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Die Deutschen sind nicht an den Münchner Bahnhof gegangen, weil sie die Flüchtlinge lieben, sondern weil sie versuchen, ihre Schuldgefühle am Mord an den Juden mit Willkommenskultur zu kompensieren. Das ist keine gute Grundlage. Der Historiker August Winkler nennt das eine Kultur der Selbstgefälligkeit.
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  #210  
Old 03.09.2016, 23:33
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Secondly take another look at your own definition of "economic migrant":

It would be a very odd person indeed who would describe the living conditions or job opportunities in Ireland in the last 20 years as "not good".
"Good" is ultimately a relative term.
Many Swiss would consider you an economic migrant because CH is richer than Ireland.

Bottom line, as you can claim in your case, generalization would be wrong.

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I try not to make assumptions - I try to make observations and make inferrals based on data. It's remarkably liberating and I recommend it to everyone.

To get back to the topic do you not believe the prediction of the Syrian professor in Germany extremely likely to come to pass and if not why not ? :
Merkel was wrong to let in refugees the way she did.
If she wanted to help more refugees, or believed that Germany could take so many, she should have taken in more via the UNHCR program.
They are running the camps in Turkey and Jordan, have decades of experience in vetting genuine refugees.

They would have then entered Germany in a more orderly process, and the perception of open borders,
which has led to people smugglers and right wing populism running wild would not have been this severe.
A lot of countries accept refugees via the UNHCR, and dont have the potential problems Germany faces.

But, now there are hundreds of thousands in Germany, some real, some fake.
I dont see any predetermined outcome at this point, only policies that can improve the situation, or make them worse.

That article does not offer hard data.
Did he do an academic poll? Was there some kind of control group? How were the subjects selected?
Tibi speaking to some Syrian youth, and coming up with a number, is ultimately hearsay.

Ultimately, people will produce their own hard data, by their own actions.
If someone were to spend their entire life believing gays should be stoned to death, without actually casting a stone, then the German constitution does not permit them to be sanctioned for their beliefs.
So the actions of these Syrian youth , no matter what they tell Tibi, will finally matter.
They, like people everywhere, will respond to the carrots and sticks Germany holds out for them.

To do this Merkel needs to ensure that the rule of German law is applied consistently and fairly.

Stop the open borders nonsense, and declare that Germany will accept future refugees via the UNHCR, so people stop resorting to the smugglers.
Start deporting failed / fraudulent asylum seekers, no matter how difficult it is.
Almost all the countries that they come from get aid from the EU in some form or another. Time to use that clout.
If this had been done in the past, the assaults in Cologne would have been prevented.
For the ones who are accepted as genuine refugees, make their stay conditional to progress in integration.
Keep repeating the message that unless they earn the right to stay in Germany, the clock is ticking,
and when the war ends they will be sent back unless they earn their way into German society.
Switzerland already has similar policies, with reasonable success.

There will be some criminals and malcontents, as there are in any population.
If the whole group is generalized based on these, as you seem to do, then it will become a self fulfilling prophecy.
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  #211  
Old 03.09.2016, 23:47
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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I'm not sure what you are getting at with this post. If you believe what he says, than it just doubly validates the claim that Islamic integration into Europe is, in most or many cases, a lost cause. Blame could be placed on both the mentality of Muslim immigrants and the mentality of 'Euro-arrogance' and xenophobia.
My point is that I read the article and took a diferent meaning from it than others in this thread, so in that case, it's better so see and hear the man speak for himself. Simply that. I wasn't making any judgement call on what he said.
  #212  
Old 04.09.2016, 00:36
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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I do find it incredible how people on here still like to make the comparison between people who moved to work in Switzerland and those demanding to be let into Europe.

Just have a read through some of the threads on here. People have spent literally years trying to find a job in Switzerland. Exploring all possible avenues, learning languages, improving their skills set. It's virtually unheard of that people move here without a job offer, and of those that do, many end up having to go back to where they came from.

Comparing an IT worker on here to some khat chewing Somali in Calais, waiting to stowaway on the next Eddie Stobart wagon is beyond absurd.
Both the Somali and the IT worker have the same underlying motivation, finding a better, more secure life.
I think the Somali could get an IT education too you know, but alas, prolonged civil war.

What more absurd is the presumption of the Somali's motivation.
He is the "other", therefore could be coming only to steal / rape / kill.

Nevertheless, one has their permit denied, the other is queued up for deportation. So alls well that ends well?

If asylum being rejected, and becoming a status-less underclass pending deportation is not enough for you,
what exactly is the policy you want enacted for Somalis?
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  #213  
Old 04.09.2016, 01:17
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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To do this Merkel needs to ensure that the rule of German law is applied consistently and fairly.
I don't see any evidence that this is happening or will happen or even can happen.

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Stop the open borders nonsense, and declare that Germany will accept future refugees via the UNHCR, so people stop resorting to the smugglers.
Start deporting failed / fraudulent asylum seekers, no matter how difficult it is.
I agree with you - they need to deport in huge numbers - and therefore demonstrate that they have the will and the capability of sending back EVERYONE who does not meet set out criteria. Until they demonstrate that they should seal the borders.

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Almost all the countries that they come from get aid from the EU in some form or another. Time to use that clout.
Another excellent point - Turkey needs remittances , aid and access to EU markets - cut them all off completely until and unless they comply - and threaten expulsion of all Turks - time for hardball.

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If this had been done in the past, the assaults in Cologne would have been prevented.
For the ones who are accepted as genuine refugees, make their stay conditional to progress in integration.
Keep repeating the message that unless they earn the right to stay in Germany, the clock is ticking,
and when the war ends they will be sent back unless they earn their way into German society.
Agree on more or less all points.

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Switzerland already has similar policies, with reasonable success.
Don't agree - don't see any mass deportations occurring here and many ghettoes have been allowed to spring up.

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There will be some criminals and malcontents, as there are in any population.
If the whole group is generalized based on these, as you seem to do, then it will become a self fulfilling prophecy.
Why generalize ? Why not just look at the data and use that to guide decisions ?
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  #214  
Old 04.09.2016, 01:20
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Both the Somali and the IT worker have the same underlying motivation, finding a better, more secure life.
I think the Somali could get an IT education too you know, but alas, prolonged civil war.

What more absurd is the presumption of the Somali's motivation.
He is the "other", therefore could be coming only to steal / rape / kill.
Look on the other side of the argument - what benefit can either party offer to the Swiss economy ? What is the past history of Somalis versus IT workers in this respect ? What is the criminal data for both groups ? What does the integration outlook appear to be ?

These are all relevant questions - aimed at improving the receiving country and its society and its children's futures - in short the only things that should matter.
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Old 04.09.2016, 08:40
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Look on the other side of the argument - what benefit can either party offer to the Swiss economy ? What is the past history of Somalis versus IT workers in this respect ? What is the criminal data for both groups ? What does the integration outlook appear to be ?

These are all relevant questions - aimed at improving the receiving country and its society and its children's futures - in short the only things that should matter.
Society thankfully is not made up solely of IT workers it would be so frikk'n boring. You are basically saying there are no other jobs in society that a non skilled refugee from Somalia or Sudan could do or be trained to do. Also you are saying that only privileged and highly educated people (mostly white) should be allowed into Europe.

So those that are being persecuted, tortured and abused should not be able to seek sanctuary. Do you really think that women and children at the greatest risk of these things should not become a burden on our rich societies? Are you so selfish that you just want to stop all refugees coming to steal away your comfy life?

I think my society would be a much better place without self centered greedy plebs who have done nothing except profited and give sweet.f.a back into society aside from the taxes they pay. I doubt any of you ranting here take part in anyway in your communities, you hide behind your avatars and rant. If you were serious Parnell or Loz, you would just join Pediga, at least there people would want to listen to your opinions. Why don't you post something nice, like I had a great hike through Glarner or today I had a swim in Zürisee and it was fantastic. Personally last week I was at my local Gemeinzentrum Party and it was being hosted by the local Kurdish community who happen to be refugees, there was great food, interesting music and culture it was great.

Have a lovely Sunday, really try and get out and integrate a bit more ;-) x
  #216  
Old 04.09.2016, 11:59
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Both the Somali and the IT worker have the same underlying motivation, finding a better, more secure life.
I think the Somali could get an IT education too you know, but alas, prolonged civil war.

What more absurd is the presumption of the Somali's motivation.
He is the "other", therefore could be coming only to steal / rape / kill.

Nevertheless, one has their permit denied, the other is queued up for deportation. So alls well that ends well?

If asylum being rejected, and becoming a status-less underclass pending deportation is not enough for you,
what exactly is the policy you want enacted for Somalis?
I have no problem with the Somali's motivation. It's perfectly understandable to want to better your life. I have a problem with the way they go about it.

In order to get into Switzerland we all had to send a CV first and wait for the invitation. You can't just turn up and demand to be let in, which is what they're doing in Calais.

To that end the policy for Somalis should be exactly the same as it is for the rest of us when you want to move somewhere else. Send a CV first.
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Old 04.09.2016, 12:06
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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I have no problem with the Somali's motivation. It's perfectly understandable to want to better your life. I have a problem with the way they go about it.

In order to get into Switzerland we all had to send a CV first and wait for the invitation. You can't just turn up and demand to be let in, which is what they're doing in Calais.

To that end the policy for Somalis should be exactly the same as it is for the rest of us when you want to move somewhere else. Send a CV first.
To be fair you cannot sensibly compare the Somalis situation to our own. They are simply desperate, which in combination with the conditions in The Jungle has reduced to the level of near-animalistic human behaviour. We who wanted to get into Switzerland are in no way, shape or form in any comparable situation and to say otherwise is nonsensical.

I don't agree with their behaviour, I still think forced detention and processing/deportation is the only way to deal with this anarchy and chaos, but I do understand (as far as I am able) why they do it.
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  #218  
Old 04.09.2016, 14:25
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Society thankfully is not made up solely of IT workers it would be so frikk'n boring. You are basically saying there are no other jobs in society that a non skilled refugee from Somalia or Sudan could do or be trained to do. Also you are saying that only privileged and highly educated people (mostly white) should be allowed into Europe.
The language of this forum is English , clearly you do not understand it or kindly point out where I made any of those statements.

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So those that are being persecuted, tortured and abused should not be able to seek sanctuary. Do you really think that women and children at the greatest risk of these things should not become a burden on our rich societies?
No immigrant should become a burden on their recipient society - failure to observe this simple rule is what makes immigration so unattractive today. Imagine a society where the educated & skilled Somali is welcomed - this would create an incentive for other Somalis to educate their children rather than spend their resources on smuggling - not only that but the recipient society would learn to love and respect Somalis - since they add to the community and it's resources.

On the other hand look at the evidence for the kind of nonsense you promote on this forum has led to in Germany :



An entirely parallel society with no desire or attempt to integrate - despite recognising the benefits they receive from the host society. Is that your "giving back"???

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Are you so selfish that you just want to stop all refugees coming to steal away your comfy life?
Selfish has got nothing to do with it - sensible and understanding.

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I think my society would be a much better place without self centered greedy plebs who have done nothing except profited and give sweet.f.a back into society aside from the taxes they pay.
I would be very happy if people with your views would emigrate to societies where people give back everything EXCEPT their taxes - kindly let me know how you get on there's a good chap.

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I doubt any of you ranting here take part in anyway in your communities, you hide behind your avatars and rant. If you were serious Parnell or Loz, you would just join Pediga, at least there people would want to listen to your opinions. Why don't you post something nice, like I had a great hike through Glarner or today I had a swim in Zürisee and it was fantastic. Personally last week I was at my local Gemeinzentrum Party and it was being hosted by the local Kurdish community who happen to be refugees, there was great food, interesting music and culture it was great.
I hosted a dinner party in my local gemeinde last night - so GTFO - as usual. Also thanks for the usual racist jibe via karma - entirely in keeping with the intelligence level of your posts.
  #219  
Old 04.09.2016, 15:37
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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What is the past history of Somalis versus IT workers in this respect ?
Why are the two mutually exclusive?

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Why don't you post something nice, like I had a great hike through Glarner or today I had a swim in Zürisee and it was fantastic.
Ok...
I swim in Zürisee 4 or 5 times per week. I'm trying to dissolve my UK body and remold it into one of them fancy Swiss women with legs up their armpits. Unfortunately, I'm a short arse with big tits and legs that Chippendale would have been proud of. That's Thomas Chippendale, not The Chippendales.


Sometimes, it's good to just admit what you are...
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Old 04.09.2016, 15:44
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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I hosted a dinner party in my local gemeinde last night - so GTFO - as usual. Also thanks for the usual racist jibe via karma - entirely in keeping with the intelligence level of your posts.
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