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Old 03.03.2017, 12:11
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Some anti immigrant racists have set up a website called, wait for it... ref(ugee)crime.info so they can list every misdemeanour attributed to an immigrant, asylum seeker or refugee. Yeah, thumbs up to that. Without taking into account the overall statistics and what constitutes an actuall crime.
Tracking crime makes you a racist now. Lol.

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This will end well. Wont encourage vigilante crime or anything of the sort.

Must be those peace-loving locals again.
Forcing people to live together who don't want to live together never ends well.
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  #642  
Old 03.03.2017, 12:20
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Tracking crime makes you a racist now. Lol.



Forcing people to live together who don't want to live together never ends well.
Tracking crime from one particular segment of society, without any regard for any other factors other than residence status, is exactly irresponsible. It supports the assumption that by virtue of being a refugee, and with no other factors taken into account, you are more of a criminal than others.

No ones forcing them to live together. They may be required to live near each other. That's as far as they take it i believe. I'm yet to hear stories of the German government forcing its people to live with refugees under the same roof.

If you object to one group of people living near you, and not another, and the only significant difference between those groups is race, then yes, you are racist.
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  #643  
Old 03.03.2017, 13:23
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Tracking crime makes you a racist now. Lol.
If your doing so with the sole purpose of trying to prove that a majority of crime is being commited by immigrant groups, I suppose yes that would make it racist.

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Forcing people to live together who don't want to live together never ends well.
True, however by propogating racial bias and stereotyping or pidgeonholing people because of their racial differences, makes it harder for intigration to occur successfully in a society. People have to get over their prejudices before we can move on, eh Alf?

  #644  
Old 03.03.2017, 13:38
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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If your doing so with the sole purpose of trying to prove that a majority of crime is being commited by immigrant groups, I suppose yes that would make it racist.
Not having met the people who set up the website, I can't comment on the purpose.

However, if one wishes to strike back, one could run a similar map tracking crtime by Swedes.

Then there might be a level comparison and people can make up their own minds.

Stifling discussion by bandying inflamatory words such as "racist" are seldom the best way to solve differences or overcome possible misunderstandings.

Pointing out that particulöar groups are over proportionately involved in certain types of crime is not racist. rather, as long as you pretend the problem isn't there, you're never going to be able to have an honest and all cards on the table discussion on what to do about it.

Quite often in politics the finding solutions bit is the easy half. The difficult one is getting the other side to agree there is a problem.

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True, however by propogating racial bias and stereotyping or pidgeonholing people because of their racial differences, makes it harder for intigration to occur successfully in a society. People have to get over their prejudices before we can move on, eh Alf?
In principle, I agree with you. But the question here is, on whose terms do we need to move on?

The left-liberal establishment has got quite comfortable with itself in deciding when tolerance is good and when intolerance is better. In deciding what is good integration and what is bad integration. In deciding which problems exist and which don't. And anybody who disagreed could conveniently be labelled a bigot. That narrative is slowly changing and the old establishment is feeling uncomfortable with losing control.
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  #645  
Old 03.03.2017, 14:55
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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If you object to one group of people living near you, and not another, and the only significant difference between those groups is race, then yes, you are racist.
Jews and Arabs are the same race.

Catholic Arabs and Moslem Arabs are the same race.

Legal Mexican immigrants and illegal Mexican immigrants are the same race.

Tom
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  #646  
Old 03.03.2017, 14:56
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Not having met the people who set up the website, I can't comment on the purpose.
However, if one wishes to strike back, one could run a similar map tracking crtime by Swedes.
Then there might be a level comparison and people can make up their own minds.
Stifling discussion by bandying inflamatory words such as "racist" are seldom the best way to solve differences or overcome possible misunderstandings.
Pointing out that particulöar groups are over proportionately involved in certain types of crime is not racist. rather, as long as you pretend the problem isn't there, you're never going to be able to have an honest and all cards on the table discussion on what to do about it.

Quite often in politics the finding solutions bit is the easy half. The difficult one is getting the other side to agree there is a problem.


In principle, I agree with you. But the question here is, on whose terms do we need to move on?

The left-liberal establishment has got quite comfortable with itself in deciding when tolerance is good and when intolerance is better. In deciding what is good integration and what is bad integration. In deciding which problems exist and which don't. And anybody who disagreed could conveniently be labelled a bigot. That narrative is slowly changing and the old establishment is feeling uncomfortable with losing control.
This is the fallacy that you (perhaps unknowingly) fall into; people commit crimes for all sorts of reasons. Some people because they have to, others because they want to, but skin colour and/or residency status cannot logically be linked to a persons innate tendency to be a criminal. Yes, you could show that certain crimes are overrepresented in certain races or certain residency statuses, but correlation does not causation make. Unless you can prove a direct link between the genetic information of a person that affects the pigment in their skin, and the direct link this has to their criminal behavior, there is absolutely no scientific accuracy in the data.

I keep hearing about this 'left liberal establishment' but i am yet to actually ever have that term explained. Perhaps you can do the honours; what exactly is this left liberal establishment that decides tolerance, integration problems, bigotry and control? who is in it? how do they control so much of the world?
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  #647  
Old 03.03.2017, 14:58
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Jews and Arabs are the same race.

Catholic Arabs and Moslem Arabs are the same race.

Legal Mexican immigrants and illegal Mexican immigrants are the same race.

Tom
Which brings us all the way back around to the stupidity of selecting your neighbors based on race.

I do so enjoy it when we're on the same side, Tom.
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  #648  
Old 03.03.2017, 15:01
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Jews and Arabs are the same race.

Tom
Which they'll both vehenemently deny.
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  #649  
Old 03.03.2017, 15:19
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Which they'll both vehenemently deny.
Well if you go back far enough, we were all African!
  #650  
Old 03.03.2017, 15:27
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Well if you go back far enough, we were all African!
Sush! Don't tell them that either!
  #651  
Old 03.03.2017, 15:44
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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This is the fallacy that you (perhaps unknowingly) fall into; people commit crimes for all sorts of reasons. Some people because they have to, others because they want to, but skin colour and/or residency status cannot logically be linked to a persons innate tendency to be a criminal. Yes, you could show that certain crimes are overrepresented in certain races or certain residency statuses, but correlation does not causation make. Unless you can prove a direct link between the genetic information of a person that affects the pigment in their skin, and the direct link this has to their criminal behavior, there is absolutely no scientific accuracy in the data.
I said, you can't have a debate without acknowledging there is a problem. Maybe part of that debate can be about explaining why certain behaviours correlate to ceratin groups. Maybe you can prove that. Maybe you can't. But if you suppress that debate before you get there you cannot even draw that initial conclusion. It is almost as if somebody is afraid of that discussion. Why are they afraid of that discussion if they are so confident the explanation is as you say?

Of course the standard answer here is, you cannot compare two sets of data just like that. It takes experts to do that. Publishing information just like that allows people to draw wrong conclusions. Only experts can draw right conclusions.

Maybe they can. But ultimately this boils down to saying most people are stupid. And if you believe most people are stupid, why have democracy?
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  #652  
Old 03.03.2017, 15:49
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Which brings us all the way back around to the stupidity of selecting your neighbors based on race.

I do so enjoy it when we're on the same side, Tom.
Who here was saying somebody is selecting their neighbours based on race?

You have just succesfully deconstructed an imaginary argument that you yourself projected.
  #653  
Old 03.03.2017, 16:21
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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This is the fallacy that you (perhaps unknowingly) fall into; people commit crimes for all sorts of reasons. Some people because they have to, others because they want to, but skin colour and/or residency status cannot logically be linked to a persons innate tendency to be a criminal.
But surely one's background and culture will play a part in shaping their morality and outlook?

Maybe when a person is transferred to a different country with massive cultural differences perhaps they are more likely to commit criminal acts as they don't really understand how wrong it is in the new country?
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Old 03.03.2017, 16:43
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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But surely one's background and culture will play a part in shaping their morality and outlook?

Maybe when a person is transferred to a different country with massive cultural differences perhaps they are more likely to commit criminal acts as they don't really understand how wrong it is in the new country?
If that was the sole deciding factor, there would be a hell of a lot more crime then there is.

Instead, the general level of crime is falling or stagnant and rape, the crime that people love accusing refugees of, has not shown a correlating trend upwards. Take Sweden:

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The rate of reported rapes in Malmo has not dramatically risen in recent years and has in fact declined from its peak in 2010, before the recent large increases in refugees.
It is not possible to connect crimes to the ethnicity of the perpetrators as such data is not published.
And this is despite the definition of rape under swedish law being far more broad than anywhere else. It can include paying for sex, sexual harassment, indecent exposure, sexual exploitation, molestation and trafficking. While all illegal in most places, they are not counted as rape in most places.

As well as that, Swedish law also classifies each instance of rape as a separate offence, something that most countries do not do. For example, if one person rapes another 10 times over the course of two weeks, in most countries this would be classified as one offence, but in Sweden would be classified as 10 different, separate offences, each considered independently.

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During 2015, the year in which Sweden took the largest number of asylum seekers, the number of reported sex crimes and rapes actually decreased by 11% and 12% respectively compared with 2014 - 18,100 sex offences were reported to the police, of which 5,920 were classified as rape.
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Reported rapes per 100,000 inhabitants peaked in 2008, 2010 and 2011, and the figures were higher for those pre-refugee influx years than in 2015 and 2016.
In addition, the reported rape figures were not higher in the Malmo municipality, compared with two other major urban municipalities in Sweden: the capital Stockholm and Gothenburg in the west.
So, in summary, no. If the sole deciding factor was ethnicity and/or cultural background, Malmo would be seeing far higher levels of rape, and the numbers would be jumping every time the country welcomed refugees.

As well, cultural backgrounds do not get passed to offspring - the children of immigrants would not have the same cultural background as their parents, so even if cultural background could be used as a metric, it would quickly become redundant.

In any case, immigration is not a new phenomenon- There has been net inward immigration into Europe since after the second world war (and probably before), from areas with vastly different cultures. Thus, if cultural background was a good indicator, we would have become aware of it 50-80 years ago, and not just recently.
  #655  
Old 03.03.2017, 16:45
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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I said, you can't have a debate without acknowledging there is a problem. Maybe part of that debate can be about explaining why certain behaviours correlate to ceratin groups. Maybe you can prove that. Maybe you can't. But if you suppress that debate before you get there you cannot even draw that initial conclusion. It is almost as if somebody is afraid of that discussion. Why are they afraid of that discussion if they are so confident the explanation is as you say?

Of course the standard answer here is, you cannot compare two sets of data just like that. It takes experts to do that. Publishing information just like that allows people to draw wrong conclusions. Only experts can draw right conclusions.

Maybe they can. But ultimately this boils down to saying most people are stupid. And if you believe most people are stupid, why have democracy?
Is there really anybody who would take a good, long hard look at the world today and conclude anything other than yes, most people are, in the grand scheme of things, stupid?
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Old 03.03.2017, 16:51
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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But surely one's background and culture will play a part in shaping their morality and outlook?

Maybe when a person is transferred to a different country with massive cultural differences perhaps they are more likely to commit criminal acts as they don't really understand how wrong it is in the new country?
Are you talking from personal experience?

I bet you were one of those who was flushing toilets after 10pm
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  #657  
Old 03.03.2017, 16:59
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Instead, the general level of crime is falling or stagnant and rape, the crime that people love accusing refugees of, has not shown a correlating trend upwards. Take Sweden:
Oh, you mean Sweden the rape capital of Europe?

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So, in summary, no. If the sole deciding factor was ethnicity and/or cultural background, Malmo would be seeing far higher levels of rape, and the numbers would be jumping every time the country welcomed refugees.
No one knows for sure, because for some reason Sweden doesn't publish the ethnicity of the perpetrators

It also doesn't help when the police try to cover up crimes due to 'racism'

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In any case, immigration is not a new phenomenon- There has been net inward immigration into Europe since after the second world war (and probably before), from areas with vastly different cultures. Thus, if cultural background was a good indicator, we would have become aware of it 50-80 years ago, and not just recently.
The major difference is traditionally immigrants were expected to adapt and integrate to their new societies. Unfortunately a lot of 'new arrivals' are struggling with this idea and instead have to be pandered to. That's not integration, it's capitulation.
  #658  
Old 03.03.2017, 17:01
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Oh, you mean Sweden the rape capital of Europe?



No one knows for sure, because for some reason Sweden doesn't publish the ethnicity of the perpetrators

It also doesn't help when the police try to cover up crimes due to 'racism'



The major difference is traditionally immigrants were expected to adapt and integrate to their new societies. Unfortunately a lot of 'new arrivals' are struggling with this idea and instead have to be pandered to. That's not integration, it's capitulation.
I know its Friday but do try to actually read before you post. Of course Sweden rape rate is higher - they've been encouraging reporting of sexual offences for 30 years, and most other countries dint bother taking it seriously until the last 10 years or so. It also considers far more offences to be 'rape' than other countries.

And i note you have tried to completely gloss over the fact that there was no surge in the sexual offence rate when large numbers of immigrants were welcomed. This is basically the foundation stone of your entire argument, so if you cant provide it, you're entire premise is unproven and purely fictional.

Provide evidence that rapes went up in Sweden, at the times they accepted large numbers of immigrants, and people may take you seriously.

Can you provide some (reputable) evidence that recent immigrants have no intention of integrating? At all?
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Old 03.03.2017, 17:11
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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But surely one's background and culture will play a part in shaping their morality and outlook?

Maybe when a person is transferred to a different country with massive cultural differences perhaps they are more likely to commit criminal acts as they don't really understand how wrong it is in the new country?
Native North/South Americans and aborigines would understand this.
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Old 03.03.2017, 17:14
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Native North/South Americans and aborigines would understand this.
Now, lets not be hasty.

I'm sure modern Australians, like KrissKross, are integrating into the aboriginal population.

After all, it is only recently that immigrants dont integrate.

Or is 247 years not enough time to allow for integration into the local communities?
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