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  #61  
Old 13.04.2016, 08:39
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Even among the Swiss, the term "Immigranten" has now become synonomous with "Asylanten." A year ago, a Swiss wouldn't have dreamed of calling a refugee an immigrant but now suddenly, that's all what the media uses. Was this a political decision?
Whatever they call them and the interchangeability in terms the mass media is prone to use from now on, make no mistake, it is an effect of political decisions.
I have noticed the same pattern and the ulterior motives over and over again.
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Old 13.04.2016, 10:03
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Are you still claiming that people love to take a small boat tour and a walk through the Balkans to end up in an Eastern German shelter for some years?
As well as the genuine refugees, YES, many people -- millions -- are prepared to undergo this journey. The danger/inconvenience is seen as worth the perceived reward -- a large step up in quality of life for them and their families. Their perception may well be wrong, but it's what they believe, and it's what the smugglers tell them.

I feel strong sympathy for those genuinely fleeing for their lives, but a couple of points:

-- the problem is that there is undoubtedly a mixture of a) the genuinely fearful and b) those who are looking for gold at the end of the rainbow. Let's stop pretending otherwise. The question is how we tell them apart?

-- it's remarkable that all those desperate refugees, once away from the war zones, are prepared to travel many hundreds, even thousands of kilometres across numerous safe countries in order to get to Germany or Sweden. Why would that be if all they wanted was respite from the bombing?

For me, the sad irony is that many of the first hundreds of thousands of migrants/refugees to reach Germany last year were those with enough ready cash to pay the smugglers. Syria has (had) a fair number of wealthy people totally unaffected by the troubles. You could see a lot of them in the news footage last autumn, streaming into Germany in their smart jeans and big grins, videoing themselves on their iPhones as they crossed the border. The rich have saved themselves by getting to northern Europe, leaving the genuinely needy behind. When interviewed, of course they all say they want to be doctors and engineers -- as if we are supposed to be grateful to get the chance to finance their education.

My solution? First, make it very clear to migrants that we can give some of them temporary shelter, but not permanent residence. They will be expected to return when things improve. Second, direct massive effort into solving the root causes of the conflicts and economic privations that entice many to seek a better life elsewhere. In the pre-internet age, people solved their own problems through resisting and fighting, and overcoming their oppressors. Now, they check Facebook from their Afghan and Nigerian villages, and head off for the Promised Land to join their relatives.
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Old 13.04.2016, 10:22
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Guess all those lining up in Libya to make the trip across the Med are "refugees" too.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...igrants-europe
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Old 13.04.2016, 10:32
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Guess all those lining up in Libya to make the trip across the Med are "refugees" too.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...igrants-europe
And yet, I have a real inability to blame them for trying to have a better life somewhere else.
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Old 13.04.2016, 10:35
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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And yet, I have a real inability to blame them for trying to have a better life somewhere else.
Can't blame them for trying, but can blame the politicians if they're allowed to come as they please.
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Old 13.04.2016, 10:41
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

I've spent some time with people claiming asylum/refugee status over the past year. Of those I've encountered

~10% are fleeing persecution for political, ethnic or religious reasons - people who should be granted asylum
~70% are fleeing war - refugees
~20% are simply seeking a better life/economic prospects - economic migrants

I'm aware these do not reflect the statistics Europe-wide.

As individuals, I have sympathy for them all, and hope they get what they want. Politically, I think the economic migrants should be discouraged as much as possible.

The best naming approach I think is to stop referring to the groups collectively, but simply say "Economic migrants and ... <another word that encompasses those who are fleeing persecution and/or war>". It's that other word that seems to be missing. Many economic migrants claim asylum, so effectively they're bogus asylum seekers. But who's to tell until they've been processed?

I also think it's good to separate political concerns from those of individuals. I can be anti-immigration while still treating potential and actual immigrants with respect and kindness.
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Old 13.04.2016, 10:53
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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I've spent some time with people claiming asylum/refugee status over the past year. Of those I've encountered

~10% are fleeing persecution for political, ethnic or religious reasons - people who should be granted asylum
~70% are fleeing war - refugees
~20% are simply seeking a better life/economic prospects - economic migrants

I'm aware these do not reflect the statistics Europe-wide.

As individuals, I have sympathy for them all, and hope they get what they want. Politically, I think the economic migrants should be discouraged as much as possible.

The best naming approach I think is to stop referring to the groups collectively, but simply say "Economic migrants and ... <another word that encompasses those who are fleeing persecution and/or war>". It's that other word that seems to be missing. Many economic migrants claim asylum, so effectively they're bogus asylum seekers. But who's to tell until they've been processed?

I also think it's good to separate political concerns from those of individuals. I can be anti-immigration while still treating potential and actual immigrants with respect and kindness.
Those numbers seem right in my experience too.

That's just it though - trying to stop people coming to Europe to find a better life, whether they are refugees, economic migrants or those fleeing persecution, is a fruitless endeavour.

Think about it - the very worst that Europe has to offer is still better then the very best these people can hope for where they came from.

The only way we would be able to stop them is if Europe was suddenly even worse then where they came from. And, considering the shitholes they are coming from, that's impossible.

Unless you are willing to destroy everything that makes Europe the place it is today, It is doomed to failure. No matter what policies you pass, they will keep on coming. If you make it illegal, you wont actually stop it, you'll just drive it underground.

Take Eritrea - the choice faced by many migrants from there is a lifetime in servitude of a corrupt dictator and victim to his and his followers' whims (including physical and sexual abuse), or a life in Europe where it wont be easy, you wont be welcome, you'll be faced with the very worst of European society, but you will at least have a chance at a better life.

I shudder to think about the Billions of Franks, pounds, Krona and euros that have been wasted on this pointless endeavour.

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Old 13.04.2016, 11:09
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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I feel strong sympathy for those genuinely fleeing for their lives, but a couple of points:

-- the problem is that there is undoubtedly a mixture of a) the genuinely fearful and b) those who are looking for gold at the end of the rainbow. Let's stop pretending otherwise. The question is how we tell them apart?

-- it's remarkable that all those desperate refugees, once away from the war zones, are prepared to travel many hundreds, even thousands of kilometres across numerous safe countries in order to get to Germany or Sweden. Why would that be if all they wanted was respite from the bombing?
Ah! The voice of reason! What a wonderful aroma

I find it incredibly difficult to relate to someone who doesn't feel the way you do on this matter, and the very title of this thread makes me angry.

The powers that be were incredibly slow off the mark and failed to learn the lessons of the past. They should have been processing people correctly on Day 1 instead of bickering over who does what and who pays for it. Seeing as they're recently coming out about the mistakes they made in Libya, I expect it to be another few years before they talk about the mistakes they are making now.

How many times have we seen mass migration across Europe? After WWII and the pogroms, people trekked across many safe countries to reach somewhere they believed would be safe for the long term future, or where they could make a good living or where they had relatives already.

Reminds me of this exchange from one of my favourite films...

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Lazar Wolf: Chicago. In America.
Tevye: Chicago, America? We are going to New York, America. We'll be neighbors.
  #69  
Old 13.04.2016, 12:26
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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See, you had ample opportunity to have a whole A-Post exchange with the Kanton.

All it takes is reading the content of your post box in a timely - read: daily - fashion.

To preempt any lashing out: https://www.post.ch/en/customer-cent...-post-box/info


lol, define 'ample'

Do you believe that one day's notice is a reasonable amount of time?

Do you sit home waiting for the postman, and never leave the house overnight?
  #70  
Old 13.04.2016, 12:34
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Those numbers seem right in my experience too.

That's just it though - trying to stop people coming to Europe to find a better life, whether they are refugees, economic migrants or those fleeing persecution, is a fruitless endeavour.

Think about it - the very worst that Europe has to offer is still better then the very best these people can hope for where they came from.

The only way we would be able to stop them is if Europe was suddenly even worse then where they came from. And, considering the shitholes they are coming from, that's impossible.

Unless you are willing to destroy everything that makes Europe the place it is today, It is doomed to failure. No matter what policies you pass, they will keep on coming. If you make it illegal, you wont actually stop it, you'll just drive it underground.

Take Eritrea - the choice faced by many migrants from there is a lifetime in servitude of a corrupt dictator and victim to his and his followers' whims (including physical and sexual abuse), or a life in Europe where it wont be easy, you wont be welcome, you'll be faced with the very worst of European society, but you will at least have a chance at a better life.

I shudder to think about the Billions of Franks, pounds, Krona and euros that have been wasted on this pointless endeavour.
Are you saying that Europe should welcome the rest of the world, whoever wants to come, with open arms?

There's no way to stop the migration? Hmm..they closed the borders, and it's slowed to a trickle.

I shudder at the costs of having to pay off each illegal migrant to return, and all of the administrative overhead, and of all of the social welfare costs, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
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Old 13.04.2016, 13:35
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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The Greek state uses this differentiation to justify why it prioritises the Syrians over Pakistanis and/or African people in the Greek islands.
IMHO the real reason is that the Syrians have less dark skin, but the Greeks don't want to admit that they are this racist.


PS. At the same time it's not Greece's fault that it can't provide for all the unlucky people who end up in the Greek islands.
Which is of course ironic, considering that the Greeks themselves are not quite the Scandinavian type.
Anyway, I think all these issues will be settled somehow, either by sending back those who don't qualify for refugee status, send them to Germany or redistribute them to other places....from which of course they will run to Germany, Sweden etc one year or two years later, or once they get all their papers done.
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Old 13.04.2016, 13:41
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

And if you think the refugee crisis is bad now, just wait a few years down the line when the first generation is born here, all the problems we see with the second and third un-assimilated generations will be tenfold.
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  #73  
Old 13.04.2016, 18:22
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Are you saying that Europe should welcome the rest of the world, whoever wants to come, with open arms?

There's no way to stop the migration? Hmm..they closed the borders, and it's slowed to a trickle.

I shudder at the costs of having to pay off each illegal migrant to return, and all of the administrative overhead, and of all of the social welfare costs, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
Nothing personal pilatus, but this type of binary thinking is absurd and contributed to us being in this situation in the first place. Being pragmatic and reasonable does not require that you either accept everyone, or turn away everyone. There is plenty of middle ground.

Example: Assad = bad therefore his enemies = our friends - we help them to fight assad. Thats basically what we did, and the colalteral damage from that was a massive cause of the current crisis.


My point was that it would have been a far wiser investment if we had prevented the places these people are coming from turning into shitholes in the first place. Would have been vastly cheaper too.

Why is there still zero pressure on the Eritrean government to reform? there's plenty of anger about Eritrean migrants - why arent our governments doing something about it?

The refugee movement was never going to be a permanent consistent flow- the warzones were never as populous as the press would have you believe. There was always going to be a surge as people fled, and followed by a reduction in the flow, since those that could flee had already done so. I'm not sure that the border is truly 'closed' anyway, but the movement of people is better controlled.

As unpalatable as this will be to accept, Europe needs to come to terms with the fact that it will always be a place people want to come to. It will always have tremendous pull factors. Rather than trying to reduce those (a fools cause) it should try to minimize the push factors from the other side.

But what to do with the people here? The ones who have asylum?
Stop wasting money trying to kick them out. It serves no purpose. Even if you manage to return them, they'll try again. So you end up wasting a fortune, and only make the problem last even longer. It is literally a black hole of wasted money.

Get them into being productive members of society as quickly as possible. Make it easier for them to get legitimate jobs, with all appropriate controls in place, so they can start contributing to society. They didn't come all this way to sit on their arses and do nothing, they came to build a life. Enable them to do so, and the rewards are there.
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Old 13.04.2016, 19:09
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Get them into being productive members of society as quickly as possible. Make it easier for them to get legitimate jobs, with all appropriate controls in place, so they can start contributing to society. They didn't come all this way to sit on their arses and do nothing, they came to build a life. Enable them to do so, and the rewards are there.
And where are you going to take thousands and thousands of new jobs to give to totally unskilled workers?
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Old 13.04.2016, 19:23
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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And where are you going to take thousands and thousands of new jobs to give to totally unskilled workers?
They're not unskilled... they're all doctors and engineers!
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  #76  
Old 13.04.2016, 20:29
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

here goes...

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Nothing personal pilatus, but this type of binary thinking is absurd and contributed to us being in this situation in the first place. Being pragmatic and reasonable does not require that you either accept everyone, or turn away everyone. There is plenty of middle ground.

How have you inferred binary thinking from my post? I support controlled immigration. Your post seems to suggest that these controls are a 'fruitless endeavor'.

Example: Assad = bad therefore his enemies = our friends - we help them to fight assad. Thats basically what we did, and the colalteral damage from that was a massive cause of the current crisis.

Because I don't agree with flinging the borders wide open, I somehow support either Assad or his enemies? Nice try...

My point was that it would have been a far wiser investment if we had prevented the places these people are coming from turning into shitholes in the first place. Would have been vastly cheaper too.

It is not Europe's responsibility to police the world - in fact, this idea has caused many of the problems to begin with (Sykes-Picot, for example). If Syrians could drop their ethnic wars and have more of a national identity, the war would be over by now.

Why is there still zero pressure on the Eritrean government to reform? there's plenty of anger about Eritrean migrants - why arent our governments doing something about it?

Why aren't the Eritreans themselves doing something about it? You suggest that they are not capable of being self-determinate.

The refugee movement was never going to be a permanent consistent flow- the warzones were never as populous as the press would have you believe. There was always going to be a surge as people fled, and followed by a reduction in the flow, since those that could flee had already done so. I'm not sure that the border is truly 'closed' anyway, but the movement of people is better controlled.

Are you suggesting that closing the borders hasn't worked? Tell that to the 10,000+ who are 'stuck' camping in the rain at Idomeni (but really just refuse to go to free accomodations at Greek reception centers).

As unpalatable as this will be to accept, Europe needs to come to terms with the fact that it will always be a place people want to come to. It will always have tremendous pull factors. Rather than trying to reduce those (a fools cause) it should try to minimize the push factors from the other side.

Or mind it's own business, lest it cause a whole new round of problems...e.g. Iraq

But what to do with the people here? The ones who have asylum?
Stop wasting money trying to kick them out. It serves no purpose. Even if you manage to return them, they'll try again. So you end up wasting a fortune, and only make the problem last even longer. It is literally a black hole of wasted money.

Nobody has suggested kicking out people who have been granted asylum - it's the majority who are ineligible that are the problem.

Get them into being productive members of society as quickly as possible. Make it easier for them to get legitimate jobs, with all appropriate controls in place, so they can start contributing to society. They didn't come all this way to sit on their arses and do nothing, they came to build a life. Enable them to do so, and the rewards are there.

Funny that they generally only want to build lives n Germany and Sweden, eh? I wonder why?
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Old 13.04.2016, 21:16
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Some people will try anything for a room upgrade:


Syrian Refugee in Germany Accused of Arson, Trying to Frame Neo-Nazis

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Old 14.04.2016, 00:27
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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They're not unskilled... they're all doctors and engineers!
Doctors from Africa´eh?
like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rCoseZkII0
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Old 14.04.2016, 09:14
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Thousands stuck on the border with the closing of the Balkan route, they are going to be stuck there until it becomes a humanitarian crisis and they will have to be let through.
Meanwhile, and I think I mentioned it before, the "streams" of refugees will simply find a new route, just because one route has been closed doesn't mean that there will be no more refugees.

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles...to-help.608744

The lower med is going to be a charnel house this crossing season, already temps are over 30°
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Old 14.04.2016, 12:48
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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here goes...
Nothing personal pilatus, but this type of binary thinking is absurd and contributed to us being in this situation in the first place. Being pragmatic and reasonable does not require that you either accept everyone, or turn away everyone. There is plenty of middle ground.

How have you inferred binary thinking from my post? I support controlled immigration. Your post seems to suggest that these controls are a 'fruitless endeavor'.

Its because, for the most part, they are. People are always going to move to greener pastures, wherever they may be. The more difficult you make it, the more underhand their method become. History has taught us that plenty.

Example: Assad = bad therefore his enemies = our friends - we help them to fight assad. Thats basically what we did, and the colalteral damage from that was a massive cause of the current crisis.

Because I don't agree with flinging the borders wide open, I somehow support either Assad or his enemies? Nice try...

Not what i said either. It was an example of binary thinking that contributed to our current problem. We disagreed with Assad. We armed his enemies. We fed the war. We now have to deal with the consequences of that war.

My point was that it would have been a far wiser investment if we had prevented the places these people are coming from turning into shitholes in the first place. Would have been vastly cheaper too.

It is not Europe's responsibility to police the world - in fact, this idea has caused many of the problems to begin with (Sykes-Picot, for example). If Syrians could drop their ethnic wars and have more of a national identity, the war would be over by now.

No one is saying it is. It is Europes responsibility to look after itself. But there comes a point where it damages itself by trying to prevent the inevitable, and wastes billions doing so. PS, the syrian war isnt ethnic, its a civil war, precipitated by opposition to a tyrannical government. Im glad you know how to end the war - who knew it was a simple of developing an identity. I guess the flagrant abuse of power, the devastating socio-economic factors, the political suffocation of all opposition, the murder of civilians protesting...all these things could be solved with a national identity!

Why is there still zero pressure on the Eritrean government to reform? there's plenty of anger about Eritrean migrants - why arent our governments doing something about it?

Why aren't the Eritreans themselves doing something about it? You suggest that they are not capable of being self-determinate.

Because slaves generally cant do anything against their masters. What exactly do you want them to do? Do you have any actual suggestions other than "GO HOME!!!!!!" ? Try to read up on the situation in Eritrea and you may find a better understanding of why people are leaving. Then ask, why are we investing so little into actually changing the narrative, so that people dont feel the need as much to get away from that hellhole.

The refugee movement was never going to be a permanent consistent flow- the warzones were never as populous as the press would have you believe. There was always going to be a surge as people fled, and followed by a reduction in the flow, since those that could flee had already done so. I'm not sure that the border is truly 'closed' anyway, but the movement of people is better controlled.

Are you suggesting that closing the borders hasn't worked? Tell that to the 10,000+ who are 'stuck' camping in the rain at Idomeni (but really just refuse to go to free accomodations at Greek reception centers).

Yes, well done on stranding thousands of people. The point is, my dear friend, these people have not disappeared, have they? they havent given up and gone home, have they? They are still there, still trying to get in. we haven't solved the problem, just pushed it further down the timeline. These people, if they are determined to get in, will get in whether illegally or not, or will die trying.

Where have you read that they are refusing to go to Greek reception centres? Source please.


As unpalatable as this will be to accept, Europe needs to come to terms with the fact that it will always be a place people want to come to. It will always have tremendous pull factors. Rather than trying to reduce those (a fools cause) it should try to minimize the push factors from the other side.

Or mind it's own business, lest it cause a whole new round of problems...e.g. Iraq

Again, binary thinking. minding our own business is going to be of no help. The world is getting smaller and smaller, and what happens thousands of miles away affects us more today than at any other point in history. We have no real choice in the matter. Washing our hands of the matter and watching dead children wash up on shore is not a real option. There are ways of conducting foreign policy, without it being at the business end of an M-16.

But what to do with the people here? The ones who have asylum?
Stop wasting money trying to kick them out. It serves no purpose. Even if you manage to return them, they'll try again. So you end up wasting a fortune, and only make the problem last even longer. It is literally a black hole of wasted money.

Nobody has suggested kicking out people who have been granted asylum - it's the majority who are ineligible that are the problem.


To be honest, the same applies to them. Where it makes sense, for security or for judicial reasons, they should be deported. But where there is no real benefit in exporting people that have just been imported, only for them to be imported again, and continue the cycle ad nauseum, this course of action shouldn't be forced. .

Get them into being productive members of society as quickly as possible. Make it easier for them to get legitimate jobs, with all appropriate controls in place, so they can start contributing to society. They didn't come all this way to sit on their arses and do nothing, they came to build a life. Enable them to do so, and the rewards are there.

Funny that they generally only want to build lives n Germany and Sweden, eh? I wonder why?

We've covered that - they can find a better life there then they can ever hope for from where they have come.
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