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Old 11.07.2017, 12:53
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Oh, you mean something like Australia's workable solution?

The one that the screaming liberals are always bleating on about?
Why would that work in Europe, though?
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Old 11.07.2017, 12:58
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Why would that work in Europe, though?
Lease an island or land in North Africa and build a facility where the migrants can stay whilst their application for asylum is assessed.

Once the chancers realize that they will be not entering Europe until they can prove that they are genuine refugees those migrant boats will cut down in a hurry.

You could also send all failed asylum seekers there who won't or can't be returned home.
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Old 11.07.2017, 13:11
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Lease an island or land in North Africa and build a facility where the migrants can stay whilst their application for asylum is assessed.

Once the chancers realize that they will be not entering Europe until they can prove that they are genuine refugees those migrant boats will cut down in a hurry.

You could also send all failed asylum seekers there who won't or can't be returned home.
Migrant camps aren't working in Europe already. I can't imagine why they'll work in Africa or "an island off Africa". Africa has already got its fair share of camps anyway, I'm sure they would push back on opening more.
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Old 11.07.2017, 13:16
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Lease an island or land in North Africa and build a facility where the migrants can stay whilst their application for asylum is assessed.

Once the chancers realize that they will be not entering Europe until they can prove that they are genuine refugees those migrant boats will cut down in a hurry.

You could also send all failed asylum seekers there who won't or can't be returned home.

If you're coming from a place where the rule of law has broken down you're not likely to trust the rule of law.

Most would just end run any system you put in place.

Canada and Australia work because of their remoteness - you can't walk or paddle to either place.
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Old 11.07.2017, 13:28
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Lease an island or land in North Africa and build a facility where the migrants can stay whilst their application for asylum is assessed.
Never heard of Lampedusa?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamped...ception_center
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  #1186  
Old 11.07.2017, 13:53
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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That's still unquantifiable and meaningless, though.

Quite frankly it's a bit simplistic and naive, too.
How so?

1) Open up free trading and remove tariffs. As an example, the EU imposes a 9.6% import duty on Garlic.
2) Stop handing out free healthcare, education, money, accommodation and cash to migrants and they'll stop coming.

3) I should add stop interfering in foreign countries and conflicts that have nothing to do with Europe.
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Old 11.07.2017, 14:10
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Part of the problem was the change made some years ago (no idea when) that refugees/asylum seekers have to actually set foot in a country to claim now. Previously they used to be able to claim at a country's embassy/consulate in their home country. If that were the case now that might cut down on the people smugglers since there'd be no incentive to come to Europe if they knew they'd be sent straight back for not having claimed in their home countries. You could say the embassies/consulates would be swamped with applications and that may be true, but somehow I don't think so many from countries that aren't in conflict would try it on as they are now.

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Old 11.07.2017, 14:31
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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How so?

1) Open up free trading and remove tariffs. As an example, the EU imposes a 9.6% import duty on Garlic.
2) Stop handing out free healthcare, education, money, accommodation and cash to migrants and they'll stop coming.

3) I should add stop interfering in foreign countries and conflicts that have nothing to do with Europe.
Same old story. Define migrant.

I'm a migrant. I was unemployed, I received handouts and free German lessons and my accident insurance was paid via my benefits.

No. 3 I'd agree with if Europe hadn't historically caused the shitstorm in the first place.
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Old 11.07.2017, 14:58
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Same old story. Define migrant.

I'm a migrant. I was unemployed, I received handouts and free German lessons and my accident insurance was paid via my benefits.

No. 3 I'd agree with if Europe hadn't historically caused the shitstorm in the first place.
I assume you didn't turn up and ask for handouts and free German lessons though, and that you took from a system you'd been paying into.
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Old 11.07.2017, 15:43
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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I assume you didn't turn up and ask for handouts and free German lessons though, and that you took from a system you'd been paying into.
Well yes. But all it illustrates is that the term "migrants" is not so clear cut, is it?
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Old 11.07.2017, 16:04
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Migrant camps aren't working in Europe already. I can't imagine why they'll work in Africa or "an island off Africa". Africa has already got its fair share of camps anyway, I'm sure they would push back on opening more.
For the right price i'm sure you could lease land from an African nation.

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Never heard of Lampedusa?
Apparently Lampedusa worked reasonably well until hordes of migrants started arriving and it became overwhelmed.
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Old 11.07.2017, 16:26
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Apparently Lampedusa worked reasonably well until hordes of migrants started arriving and it became overwhelmed.
So clearly, you CAN'T employ the same solutions as Australia then, can you?
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Old 11.07.2017, 16:31
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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So clearly, you CAN'T employ the same solutions as Australia then, can you?
If Europe had land leased in Africa then I think they could employ similar solutions to Australia.

Jim Molan co-author of the Australian asylum policy said Australia’s success is ''not about the geography; it is about government resolve''

Source
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Old 11.07.2017, 16:54
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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If Europe had land leased in Africa then I think they could employ similar solutions to Australia.

Jim Molan co-author of the Australian asylum policy said Australia’s success is ''not about the geography; it is about government resolve''

Source
And if you were hell bent for leather to get to Europe from Africa (regardless of if your motivation was free handouts, terrorism, a better future, or a predilection for Starbucks coffee) you would just take the next path of least resistance.

The Bosphorus is only 6.5km wide. It's a long walk to get to the beach, but would seem like a good wager if you really wanted to reach Birmingham, Hamburg, Marseilles...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "Oh, well never mind, they'll come anyways." It's more that the problem/battlefield (choose your bias) will change with each countermeasure.

Although I don't like the connotations, the right strategy would be to treat the situation as an epidemic. Isolate and treat the source, and immunize/apply preventative medicine to the rest.

The issue isn't "Migrant's yes/no". It's more how many, which ones, how do we get them integrated?

Australia and Canada have the luxury of remoteness, Europe doesn't - this means they need to react differently.
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Old 11.07.2017, 17:10
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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For the right price i'm sure you could lease land from an African nation.
Lease is useless, if anything it would need to be extraterritorial. Same as Guantanamo.
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Old 11.07.2017, 19:27
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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And if you were hell bent for leather to get to Europe from Africa (regardless of if your motivation was free handouts, terrorism, a better future, or a predilection for Starbucks coffee) you would just take the next path of least resistance.

The Bosphorus is only 6.5km wide. It's a long walk to get to the beach, but would seem like a good wager if you really wanted to reach Birmingham, Hamburg, Marseilles...
The allure of trying to get into Europe is the fact that once you’re in then chances are you will not be sent back, regardless of whether you have a valid reason to be there or not.

You seem to ignore that part of Australia's system is that if you arrive by boat then you are barred from ever entering the country, period. If you introduces a similar measure with people entering Europe illegally I think it would be a rather large deterrence.

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The issue isn't "Migrant's yes/no". It's more how many, which ones, how do we get them integrated?
If Europe had the answer to that then they would probably be able to integrate the existing population – something they seem to be struggling with.

The sad reality is that a lot of these people will never be integrated - and in many cases they don't want to be.

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Australia and Canada have the luxury of remoteness, Europe doesn't - this means they need to react differently.
Maybe you’re right, but again, the man who created Australia’s asylum policy believes that all that is needed to make it work in Europe is the political will:

''Europeans think it’s easy in Australia to control our borders, but they’re just making up excuses for doing nothing themselves''
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  #1197  
Old 11.07.2017, 19:55
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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The allure of trying to get into Europe is the fact that once you’re in then chances are you will not be sent back, regardless of whether you have a valid reason to be there or not.

You seem to ignore that part of Australia's system is that if you arrive by boat then you are barred from ever entering the country, period. If you introduces a similar measure with people entering Europe illegally I think it would be a rather large deterrence.

If Europe had the answer to that then they would probably be able to integrate the existing population – something they seem to be struggling with.

The sad reality is that a lot of these people will never be integrated - and in many cases they don't want to be.

Maybe you’re right, but again, the man who created Australia’s asylum policy believes that all that is needed to make it work in Europe is the political will:

''Europeans think it’s easy in Australia to control our borders, but they’re just making up excuses for doing nothing themselves''
Other than what I've read online I can't speak to how well immigration and integration works in Australia, so I won't.

The reason it works in Canada is that it's remoteness alone has (until now) served as a barrier which in and of itself means that the new arrivals have to money to get there, and enough trust in POGG to follow the system. The fact that they arrive in a society which is for the most part itself only a few generations away from not being Canadian, in comparatively small numbers and do not end up in a ghetto plays a large role too.

The fact that the weak ones who survive the first winter tend to get finished off by the mosquitos helps too.

Again, you can't walk or paddle your way to Canada unless you're incredibly resourceful - if you manage that feat then the mere act of crossing the border illegally is a doddle.

You can't force integration. You can foster it, or you can make it highly unlikely.

Europe has recently, in general, done a really crappy job of dealing with migration, on the one part by not keeping tabs on how many, and whom, and on the other by not doing the legwork to make sure that those who do arrive and want to integrate actually can. Schools and municipalities can run as many language programs and isolation camps as they want... These people won't think of Europe as "home" until Europe regards them as something other than L'Étranger.
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Old 11.07.2017, 20:43
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Other than what I've read online I can't speak to how well immigration and integration works in Australia, so I won't.

The reason it works in Canada is that it's remoteness alone has (until now) served as a barrier which in and of itself means that the new arrivals have to money to get there, and enough trust in POGG to follow the system. The fact that they arrive in a society which is for the most part itself only a few generations away from not being Canadian, in comparatively small numbers and do not end up in a ghetto plays a large role too.

The fact that the weak ones who survive the first winter tend to get finished off by the mosquitos helps too.

Again, you can't walk or paddle your way to Canada unless you're incredibly resourceful - if you manage that feat then the mere act of crossing the border illegally is a doddle.

You can't force integration. You can foster it, or you can make it highly unlikely.

Europe has recently, in general, done a really crappy job of dealing with migration, on the one part by not keeping tabs on how many, and whom, and on the other by not doing the legwork to make sure that those who do arrive and want to integrate actually can. Schools and municipalities can run as many language programs and isolation camps as they want... These people won't think of Europe as "home" until Europe regards them as something other than L'Étranger.
Essentially your argument is that integration is a two-way street. Once we cut the BS and get down to the nitty gritty the reality is that some cultures are not compatible together. Which means that the people from one of the cultures will have to change their ways in order for integration to work.

I think most people agree that if you choose to move to another country then the onus is on you to fit in.

Talking of which, immigration and integration works pretty well overall in Australia. Here's our unofficial policy
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Old 11.07.2017, 20:54
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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Essentially your argument is that integration is a two-way street. Once we cut the BS and get down to the nitty gritty the reality is that some cultures are not compatible together. Which means that the people from one of the cultures will have to change their ways in order for integration to work.

I think most people agree that if you choose to move to another country then the onus is on you to fit in.

Talking of which, immigration and integration works pretty well overall in Australia. Here's our unofficial policy
Essentially my argument is that integration has to be desired by the new Canadians, and allowed by the established Canadians.

But if you're happy to call that BS then that's your own (narrow minded) right.

Integration will never work if it means stopping being who you are, and becoming some other person's idea of who you must be, without even a modicum of instruction.

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Old 11.07.2017, 21:53
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Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

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So far all the quick building of tent camps and more permanent housing, not to mention all the language courses, integration courses, people cooking and cleaning for them, legal stuff, etc etc is actually creating GDP growth.

This just goes to show how GDP is not necessarily an effective measure of meaningful or sustainable growth. Even paying people to dig holes and then fill them back in would actually create GDP growth. But any government shutting that down too quickly would be shooting themself in the foot. The Pavlovian attachment to GDP is too strong.
That's not real growth, is it. That's just wealth redistribution....imagine if they actually had to borrow money to afford that. A bit like Greece and other countries creating jobs in public administration payed with salaries that are obviously not justified by any efficiency rate.
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