Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 29.08.2015, 13:33
Deep Purple's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: England
Posts: 5,259
Groaned at 16 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 5,236 Times in 2,551 Posts
Deep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond repute
Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

There has been a fair bit of discussion in the media about the terminology used for people moving from country to country. Some people are claiming that the terminology affects people's perceptions. Apart from those in the title the terms Immigrants, Economic Migrants or Expats may also be used occasionally. That is apart from adding to the drama with terms such as swarms.

Sometimes various groups are lumped together under one term, usually migrants, rather than more specific descriptions for different groups.

Does the terminology matter and alter your perceptions of thse people?

Here is some more detail:

Change petition to use the term Refugees
https://www.change.org/p/request-bbc...igrant-crisis?

BBC's explanation of the terms
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34061097

The Guardian's opinion
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ugees-humanity

UNHCR definitions
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49c3646c137.html

UNESCO article on migration
http://www.unesco.org/new/en/social-...nal-migration/
__________________
"I'll say I can't tell you when, But if my spirit is strong, I know it can't be long, No questions I'm not alone, Somehow I'll find my way home" Rod
  #2  
Old 29.08.2015, 13:44
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,500
Groaned at 971 Times in 686 Posts
Thanked 17,488 Times in 6,852 Posts
Chuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond reputeChuff has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

It's just semantics imo, they are migrants and the stigma attached to the name is because the levels of them are near-catastrophic. Changing the term will only sour that term too.

Last edited by Chuff; 29.08.2015 at 14:00.
The following 2 users would like to thank Chuff for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 29.08.2015, 13:52
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Of course terminologies influence people’s perceptions. It is a well-known factor and widely used in the media, in marketing, social psychology etc.

This was one of my points in the Amsterdam-Paris train shooting.
Forming an informed opinion seems very important (terrorist vs lone actor; homicide vs murder vs manslaughter; calculated vs spontaneous murder; accountable offenders vs mentally ill offenders)

That said a terminology alone is only part of the equation (for me) in my perception of migrants.

At the end of the day, I have a great deal of empathy for the Syrian refugees, perhaps because I have close friends who had to flee their countries due to wars or dangers of being persecuted. We can all potentially become homeless, or suffer hardship in other ways, so I honestly don't understand the arrogance of some governments that fail to take any measures regarding the migrants.

Commercial migrant, refugee or else, everyone should be assisted till they get back up on their feet and they deserve to be treated with dignity, regardless of their background.
This user groans at for this post:
  #4  
Old 29.08.2015, 14:32
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Jesus H Christ. How on earth is this even a topic for discussion. They're called migrants because they bloody migrating. Or refugees because they're escaping sodding persecution.

What the hell else should they be called? Trans Nationals? Diversity Enablers? Fish food?
The following 15 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 29.08.2015, 14:37
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Quote:
View Post
Jesus H Christ. How on earth is this even a topic for discussion. They're called migrants because they bloody migrating. Or refugees because they're escaping sodding persecution.

What the hell else should they be called? Trans Nationals? Diversity Enablers? Fish food?
+1

A person who migrates is a migrant. A person who is fleeing war or persecution is a refugee, which is a particular kind of migrant (in some contexts, one can differentiate between asylum-seeker and refugee - but it amounts to the same thing).

Pissing about with words isn't going to change the horrible situation.
The following 11 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 29.08.2015, 15:05
Deep Purple's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: England
Posts: 5,259
Groaned at 16 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 5,236 Times in 2,551 Posts
Deep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Quote:
View Post
It's just semantics imo, they are migrants and the stigma attached to the name is because the levels of them are near-catastrophic. Changing the term will only sour that term too.
Quote:
View Post
Jesus H Christ. How on earth is this even a topic for discussion. They're called migrants because they bloody migrating. Or refugees because they're escaping sodding persecution.
Quote:
+1

A person who migrates is a migrant. A person who is fleeing war or persecution is a refugee, which is a particular kind of migrant (in some contexts, one can differentiate between asylum-seeker and refugee - but it amounts to the same thing).

Pissing about with words isn't going to change the horrible situation.
I agree that the situation is far more important than the terminology used. I posted this as so far over 11,000 people consider it important enough to have signed the petition and it has become a talking point with the BBC and The Guardian for starters.

I think that the important point is that if the terminology used is influencing peoples attitudes could that lead to further inaction, resentment or other problems?
  #7  
Old 29.08.2015, 15:21
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,239
Groaned at 93 Times in 84 Posts
Thanked 18,685 Times in 8,290 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

An ex-pat is a person who leaves one country to settle temporarily or permanently in an other country.

A refugee (German: Flüchtling) is someone who "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to, or owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country." (1951 Refugee Convention)

A migrant is a person who leaves one country to settle permanent in an other for reasons other than a refugee does (UNHCR). (Some of the EF folks are migrants).

An asylum seeker is someone who is going to request, requested asylum, or is granted asylum in another state. German uses two different terms: 'Asylbewerber' for those who have applied for asylum and 'Asylant' for those which where granted asylum because they where recognized as refugees.

Migrant and refugees are a disjoint groups but both are ex-pats.
In German an Asylbewerber could be a refugee as well as an migrant. An Asylant is always an refugee. In English an asylum seeker can be a migrant or a refugee. Not all migrants are asylum seekers, but all refugees are asylum seekers.

Note: A refugee is only so long a refugee as the condition in his home country do not allow a safe return. Some refugees may become migrants at some point.
__________________
"Okay, I just hope we don't wake up on Mars or something surrounded by millions of little squashy guys."
The following 5 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 29.08.2015, 15:27
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Quote:
View Post
I posted this as so far over 11,000 people consider it important enough to have clicked a button on a website and it has become a talking point with the kind of people who talk bollocks at dinner parties for starters.
FTFY

Quote:
I think that the important point is that if the terminology used is influencing peoples attitudes could that lead to further inaction, resentment or other problems?
Lots of people hate immigrants. Lots of people always did. They hated Irish immigrants, then they hated Jamaican immigrants, then they hated Pakistani immigrants, then they hated Albanians and Poles and Somalis and Eritreans and Syrians and...

Changing words just makes people who don't hate immigrants feel good. It won't make the slightest scrap of difference to the kind of people who think that scuttling boats with people on board is a good idea.
The following 6 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 29.08.2015, 15:37
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,757
Groaned at 236 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 5,312 Times in 2,431 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Quote:
FTFY

Changing words just makes people who don't hate immigrants feel good. It won't make the slightest scrap of difference to the kind of people who think that scuttling boats with people on board is a good idea.
Or truck-loads ...
This user would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 29.08.2015, 15:46
bigblue2's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glarus
Posts: 8,086
Groaned at 486 Times in 405 Posts
Thanked 14,715 Times in 5,780 Posts
bigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Lorena1 I would take you more seriously if you didn't groan and bad rep everyone you don't agree with, as it stands I see you as nothing more than an idiotic troll

Quote:
View Post
Of course terminologies influence people’s perceptions. It is a well-known factor and widely used in the media, in marketing, social psychology etc.

This was one of my points in the Amsterdam-Paris train shooting.
Forming an informed opinion seems very important (terrorist vs lone actor; homicide vs murder vs manslaughter; calculated vs spontaneous murder; accountable offenders vs mentally ill offenders)

That said a terminology alone is only part of the equation (for me) in my perception of migrants.

At the end of the day, I have a great deal of empathy for the Syrian refugees, perhaps because I have close friends who had to flee their countries due to wars or dangers of being persecuted. We can all potentially become homeless, or suffer hardship in other ways, so I honestly don't understand the arrogance of some governments that fail to take any measures regarding the migrants.

Commercial migrant, refugee or else, everyone should be assisted till they get back up on their feet and they deserve to be treated with dignity, regardless of their background.
The following 5 users would like to thank bigblue2 for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 29.08.2015, 16:00
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,239
Groaned at 93 Times in 84 Posts
Thanked 18,685 Times in 8,290 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

About the people in Calais:
Non-FMOP-privileged-human-beings

(A reason why I think the FMOP is one of the most racist/elitist legislation of modern times)
The following 2 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 29.08.2015, 16:04
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ticino
Posts: 2,872
Groaned at 91 Times in 63 Posts
Thanked 3,659 Times in 1,471 Posts
Snoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Quote:
View Post
Commercial migrant, refugee or else, everyone should be assisted till they get back up on their feet and they deserve to be treated with dignity, regardless of their background.
Every Tom, Dick and Harry that posts on EF saying they want to come to Switzerland for a better life fits that bill...
The following 2 users would like to thank Snoopy for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 29.08.2015, 19:48
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 8,032
Groaned at 348 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 10,388 Times in 5,490 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Quote:
View Post
Jesus H Christ. How on earth is this even a topic for discussion. They're called migrants because they bloody migrating. Or refugees because they're escaping sodding persecution.

What the hell else should they be called? Trans Nationals? Diversity Enablers? Fish food?
Expats of course
The following 5 users would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 30.08.2015, 12:34
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

I don’t much care about you hemorrhaging anger-filled rants. Neither can I help with whatever it is that’s causing you to get so riled up about groans or virtual red blobs.

Quote:
View Post
Lorena1 I would take you more seriously if you didn't groan and bad rep everyone you don't agree with, as it stands I see you as nothing more than an idiotic troll
The following 4 users groan at for this post:
  #15  
Old 30.08.2015, 12:36
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

It is not as straightforward as you seem to think.
There is a complexity in applying the existing laws, assessing the impact of external factors (eg resettlements, persecution, trafficking, war crimes, political and non political crimes, children at risk, people with disabilities etc), consulting customary International law and case-law and so on.
Lines get even blurrier when you look at the intersection of topics, such as refugee protection and statelessness. For organizations trying to manage refugees, the existing international regulations are therefore anything but clear and more often than not end up creating more confusion than solutions.
Laws should address social problems based on agreed upon legal principles, like equality and fairness, but at this level it becomes so entangled in international politics that it is used to label people and their (re) settlements, consequently deciding on their fate.


Quote:
View Post
Jesus H Christ. How on earth is this even a topic for discussion. They're called migrants because they bloody migrating. Or refugees because they're escaping sodding persecution.

What the hell else should they be called? Trans Nationals? Diversity Enablers? Fish food?
  #16  
Old 30.08.2015, 15:08
lewton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hamburg, Deutschland
Posts: 626
Groaned at 41 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 786 Times in 448 Posts
lewton is considered knowledgeablelewton is considered knowledgeablelewton is considered knowledgeable
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

The Greek state uses this differentiation to justify why it prioritises the Syrians over Pakistanis and/or African people in the Greek islands.
IMHO the real reason is that the Syrians have less dark skin, but the Greeks don't want to admit that they are this racist.


PS. At the same time it's not Greece's fault that it cacan'tntn provide for all the unlucky people who end up in the Greek islands.
  #17  
Old 30.08.2015, 15:18
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Berner Oberland
Posts: 220
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 236 Times in 85 Posts
MarKanLu is considered knowledgeableMarKanLu is considered knowledgeableMarKanLu is considered knowledgeable
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Greeks and Syrians are neighbours, people of the eastern Mediterranean. Syria is a breath away from Cyprus. There used to be links (commercial and cultural, see the Syrian Orthodox Church) between the two people.

Quote:
View Post
IMHO the real reason is that the Syrians have less dark skin, but the Greeks don't want to admit that they are this racist.
This user would like to thank MarKanLu for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 30.08.2015, 15:20
Deep Purple's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: England
Posts: 5,259
Groaned at 16 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 5,236 Times in 2,551 Posts
Deep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond reputeDeep Purple has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Another term that is used officially in some places is Aliens. It is used by the USA and within the European Convention on Human Rights. Thankfully that hasn't got into the national media yet.

I think headlines like Swarms of Aliens Invade Britain could cause a bit of a panic
The following 2 users would like to thank Deep Purple for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 30.08.2015, 19:10
VFR on top's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Used to be Basel.
Posts: 1,115
Groaned at 34 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 2,482 Times in 922 Posts
VFR on top has a reputation beyond reputeVFR on top has a reputation beyond reputeVFR on top has a reputation beyond reputeVFR on top has a reputation beyond reputeVFR on top has a reputation beyond reputeVFR on top has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Quote:
View Post
I agree that the situation is far more important than the terminology used. I posted this as so far over 11,000 people consider it important enough to have signed the petition and it has become a talking point with the BBC and The Guardian for starters.
Well, that's another 11,000 I can cross of my X-Mas card list.
The following 2 users would like to thank VFR on top for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 30.08.2015, 19:26
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 7,878
Groaned at 284 Times in 213 Posts
Thanked 17,626 Times in 6,193 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Migrants, Refugees, Asylum Seekers or Other terms?

Quote:
View Post
An ex-pat is a person who leaves one country to settle temporarily or permanently in an other country and earns over 120k.

A refugee (German: Flüchtling) is someone who "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to, or owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country." (1951 Refugee Convention)

A migrant is a person who leaves one country to settle permanent in an other for reasons other than a refugee does (UNHCR). (Some of the EF folks are migrants).

An asylum seeker is someone who is going to request, requested asylum, or is granted asylum in another state. German uses two different terms: 'Asylbewerber' for those who have applied for asylum and 'Asylant' for those which where granted asylum because they where recognized as refugees.

Migrant and refugees are a disjoint groups but both are ex-pats.
In German an Asylbewerber could be a refugee as well as an migrant. An Asylant is always an refugee. In English an asylum seeker can be a migrant or a refugee. Not all migrants are asylum seekers, but all refugees are asylum seekers.

Note: A refugee is only so long a refugee as the condition in his home country do not allow a safe return. Some refugees may become migrants at some point.
fixed that for you
This user would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
Closed Thread




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Asylum Seekers are Thieves Guest Swiss politics/news 284 09.08.2013 22:31
Violent asylum seekers? Odile Swiss politics/news 189 19.11.2012 09:41
US Asylum Seekers in Switzerland? Jumping Captain International affairs/politics 24 22.10.2012 23:09
Marriage loophole closing for asylum seekers The Local Swiss news via The Local 0 15.02.2012 11:46
Asylum seekers sanding off fingertips: report The Local Swiss news via The Local 0 06.02.2012 15:27


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:01.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0