Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 25.10.2015, 11:09
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 14,621
Groaned at 183 Times in 146 Posts
Thanked 10,557 Times in 6,014 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Free Speech and Phobias

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34613855

Interesting article on how politicians/law are eroding the ability to question/argue/discuss various subjects.

Are we losing these rights under laws against inciting hatred? Should such laws be more clearly defined?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 25.10.2015, 13:06
Sbrinz's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 11,253
Groaned at 551 Times in 350 Posts
Thanked 10,850 Times in 5,571 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Politicians usually have to keep to the party's official stance, or leave and become independent, so we cannot do too much about improving "free speech" in Parliament.

I also abhor the modern trend to avoid serious discussion. A female student at Cardiff University tried to ban Germaine Greer from speaking there on "Women & Power: The Lessons of the 20th Century" The reason was that she had previously spoken about transgenic people.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-sou...wales-34626450

Universities used to be centres of free speech and informed discussion, but today can we simply ban people because we don't like their opinions?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Sbrinz for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 25.10.2015, 17:15
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 14,621
Groaned at 183 Times in 146 Posts
Thanked 10,557 Times in 6,014 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Exactly. When does an opinion become hatred?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 25.10.2015, 17:31
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 9,235
Groaned at 143 Times in 125 Posts
Thanked 12,721 Times in 5,175 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
Exactly. When does an opinion become hatred?
When it is deemed homophobic, misogynistic and/or racist.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 25.10.2015, 17:39
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,991
Groaned at 403 Times in 301 Posts
Thanked 22,943 Times in 10,380 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

depends too if the university or organisation is paying the 'speaker' a big fat fee - in which case they have the right to choose whomever they want to. Germaine Greer has the right to say she does not think transgender women are not ... women in her eyes- but she should not be surprised if some groups choose not to pay her that fat fee for airing her views at their venue, no?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 25.10.2015, 20:29
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 14,621
Groaned at 183 Times in 146 Posts
Thanked 10,557 Times in 6,014 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
When it is deemed homophobic, misogynistic and/or racist.
But if I say I think wearing the burka is demeaning to women and has nothing to do with religion and someone else screams Islamaphobic at me then theoretically I could be arrested and charged under UK law, even though I'm only expressing my opinion. Am I inciting hatred for simply offering a different viewpoint?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 25.10.2015, 22:03
adrianlondon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 8,982
Groaned at 190 Times in 173 Posts
Thanked 24,926 Times in 6,688 Posts
adrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
But if I say I think wearing the burka is demeaning to women and has nothing to do with religion and someone else screams Islamaphobic at me then theoretically I could be arrested and charged under UK law,?
Really? That's how it works? I'm going to scream "shoplifter!" at everyone in front of me in the supermarket queue so they're taken out of my way and locked up.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 25.10.2015, 22:19
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 9,235
Groaned at 143 Times in 125 Posts
Thanked 12,721 Times in 5,175 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
But if I say I think wearing the burka is demeaning to women and has nothing to do with religion and someone else screams Islamaphobic at me then theoretically I could be arrested and charged under UK law, even though I'm only expressing my opinion. Am I inciting hatred for simply offering a different viewpoint?
Yes. Well, legally you'll be at risk from it. Personally, however, I think no.

I think the laws desperately need redefining.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 25.10.2015, 22:33
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Misery-Courtion
Posts: 14,621
Groaned at 183 Times in 146 Posts
Thanked 10,557 Times in 6,014 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
Really? That's how it works? I'm going to scream "shoplifter!" at everyone in front of me in the supermarket queue so they're taken out of my way and locked up.
No, because the law on theft is quite precise. But the law on "inciting hatred" isn't. There's no definition as such laid down in law as to what constitutes "inciting hatred" and what doesn't. It's just a vague term that could mean anything.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 26.10.2015, 12:07
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy McModface
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 8,344
Groaned at 53 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 8,425 Times in 3,088 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
Really? That's how it works? I'm going to scream "shoplifter!" at everyone in front of me in the supermarket queue so they're taken out of my way and locked up.
That's a very pejorati... Oh... Shop.. Nover mind. Carry on.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 26.10.2015, 14:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 3,517
Groaned at 119 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 4,602 Times in 2,321 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
When it is deemed homophobic, misogynistic and/or racist.
Let's pretend somebody honestly said "I hate niggers". That sounds like a racist, but it's just an opinion, not what I'd call hate speech.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 26.10.2015, 14:59
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,285
Groaned at 350 Times in 285 Posts
Thanked 18,597 Times in 7,068 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

The probably with "Free Speech" is that it allows people a platform to say things I disagree with.

That's not how it should work. "Free Speech" should only be for those who I agree with.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank dodgyken for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 26.10.2015, 15:05
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,548
Groaned at 146 Times in 125 Posts
Thanked 15,214 Times in 6,474 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
No, because the law on theft is quite precise. But the law on "inciting hatred" isn't. There's no definition as such laid down in law as to what constitutes "inciting hatred" and what doesn't. It's just a vague term that could mean anything.
The law on theft bases on the definition of property which is far from being free of loopholes. For example if you buy software the T&Cs may be inside the package or maybe even only be displayed electronically when you start the installation. Thus when buying you are on good faith agreeing to something you have not read. I may thus not find out whether or not I have stolen anything until I get home.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 26.10.2015, 15:05
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 10,434
Groaned at 272 Times in 216 Posts
Thanked 14,702 Times in 5,968 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
Let's pretend somebody honestly said "I hate niggers". That sounds like a racist, but it's just an opinion, not what I'd call hate speech.
So what would a racist say instead to convey the same meaning?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 26.10.2015, 15:09
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,548
Groaned at 146 Times in 125 Posts
Thanked 15,214 Times in 6,474 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
Let's pretend somebody honestly said "I hate niggers". That sounds like a racist, but it's just an opinion, not what I'd call hate speech.
The laws of hate speech just tell that person he's not allowed to be honest about his thoughts or motives.

So recently there was a case in the USA I think about a baker refusing to make a cake for a gay wedding. Basically the court said that he had to make the cake nevertheless. Now if that was my wedding i wouldn't want to eat that cake as i wouldn't know if he'd spat in it or worse, so I'd prefer him to be honest about his thoughts beforehand and i'd find a different supplier. But hate speech says dishonesty is better.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 26.10.2015, 16:25
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 9,235
Groaned at 143 Times in 125 Posts
Thanked 12,721 Times in 5,175 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
The laws of hate speech just tell that person he's not allowed to be honest about his thoughts or motives. ...
No. You can be honest, you simply may not express those opinions in public. The baker was rightly prosecuted - and must face the consequences of his act. Said consequences should not, however, consist of making a cake!

Quote:
View Post
Let's pretend somebody honestly said "I hate niggers". That sounds like a racist, but it's just an opinion, not what I'd call hate speech.
Saying it is not just an opinion. It is expressing an opinion. As a matter of fact, you are not, under law, permitted to express all opinions you might hold. That's why there are laws against defamation.

Obviously the example opinion doesn't fall foul of defamation, however it should, I think, be considered hate speech. First of all, there is the use of pejorative word. Secondly, the expression"I hate non-paled-skinned people" is self-evidently hate speech. You can tell by the positive use of the word "hate".

I think the suppression of certain opinions is a good thing. It hinders the ability of hate filled and hate fuelled people from finding a peer group from which to propagate their opinions. It also reduces the chances of people on the fringes moving to the core.
__________________
In accordance with Political Correctness guidelines, I've checked my privileges and come to the conclusion that I'm awesome.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 26.10.2015, 16:34
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,548
Groaned at 146 Times in 125 Posts
Thanked 15,214 Times in 6,474 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
No. You can be honest, you simply may not express those opinions in public. The baker was rightly prosecuted - and must face the consequences of his act. Said consequences should not, however, consist of making a cake!
If a man walks into your shop or phones you or sends you an email. Is what you or he says then "in public"?

If somebody walks into a tailor's shop and orders a KKK outfit, would you feel in the same way about it? Or would the tailor be in his rights to tell him to f@@k @ff and never come back?

I would consider that a private business has (maybe within certain limitations) the right to refuse any work for whatever reason and shouldn't be forced to invent fake reasons in order not to have to mention the real one.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 26.10.2015, 16:36
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,285
Groaned at 350 Times in 285 Posts
Thanked 18,597 Times in 7,068 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
If somebody walks into a tailor's shop and orders a KKK outfit, would you feel in the same way about it? Or would the tailor be in his rights to tell him to f@@k @ff and never come back?
How much tailoring does a "putting a white sheet over your head and cutting a couple of eye holes" take?

"Halloween party Officer - Yes - Casper - oooooowwwwww"
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 26.10.2015, 16:37
adrianlondon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 8,982
Groaned at 190 Times in 173 Posts
Thanked 24,926 Times in 6,688 Posts
adrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

Quote:
View Post
If somebody walks into a tailor's shop and orders a KKK outfit, would you feel in the same way about it? Or would the tailor be in his rights to tell him to f@@k @ff and never come back?
Hmm. This isn't the same as the baker story, is it? My understanding (based on guessing, I've not actually cared enough to read the story) is that the baker refused to make a standard cake for a gay couple, not that the baker was asked to make a wedding cake representing two guys shagging or something.

So your analogy should be "could the tailor refuse to make a standard suit for someone who proclaimed to belong to the KKK".
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 26.10.2015, 16:45
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,245
Groaned at 494 Times in 376 Posts
Thanked 9,815 Times in 5,202 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Free Speech and Phobias

In practice, whoever cries, screams, whines and threatens the loudest can use it to shut off dissenting views. So police, universities and organisation can react according to complaints, even though whether or not an offence has taken place has not been judged in a court of law.

Its basically mind control for the masses. The authorities are not interested in philosophical dramas and discussions, they just would rather you move along without causing any trouble, thank you.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Free speech a criminal offence in U.S.A ? halevai International affairs/politics 9 03.08.2012 12:34
Diet Phobias Dervaish Family matters/health 65 07.07.2010 08:29
Phobias: What scares you? dod General off-topic 127 15.05.2010 13:30
Free Speech in Switzerland olygirl International affairs/politics 24 24.06.2008 20:19


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0