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  #221  
Old 15.11.2015, 01:12
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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They think they got the Libyan ISIS head, Al-Baghdadi in Syria/Iraq is still at large.
I guess he would be worth capturing and putting on trial, as opposed to killing him.
They should attempt to capture all of the leaders and put them on trial rather than kill them
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  #222  
Old 15.11.2015, 01:15
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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I think you miss my point which was theoretically speaking the perpetrators cannot claim their heavenly rewards if they have been killing innocent people.
My assumption is that the suicide bombers (definitely 7 of the 8) were taking on this role because of expecting such rewards?
I'd imagine that to them, they didn't kill any innocent people.

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Do you have a source for that?
just concerning Iraq, at least 15,000 deaths as a direct result of US led forces:

"On a per-day basis, the highest intensity of civilian killings over a sustained period occurred during the first three “Shock and Awe” weeks of the 2003 invasion, when civilian deaths averaged 319 per day and totalled over 6,716 by April 9th, nearly all attributable to US-led coalition-forces"

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/2011/

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How many innocent people have they murdered in Syria and Iraq?
Again, depends who defines 'innocent'. Maybe in their eyes, none. Don't get me wrong, they sure seem to enjoy killing people - and i'm no apologist for murderers.

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It is estimated at least 100,000 civilians have been killed in Syria; you claim that "we" killed most of them? Excuse me!
Oh come on, don't put words in my mouth… I'm not talking about total deaths, but about deaths caused directly by the West to Mideast civilians compared to deaths caused by Mideast terrorists to Western civilians. When they kill each other 'we're' not necessarily responsible. Though we've armed/trained many of them and manipulate them like marionettes...

Last edited by pilatus1; 15.11.2015 at 01:27.
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  #223  
Old 15.11.2015, 01:15
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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They should attempt to capture all of the leaders and put them on trial rather than kill them
Why risk a good soldier's life for such a thing? Send robots.
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  #224  
Old 15.11.2015, 01:40
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Emwazi was a obviously a complete nutter even before his alleged 'forced conversion'.

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They should attempt to capture all of the leaders and put them on trial rather than kill them

Jihadi John's alleged side kick (a London drug dealer who converted while in prison) has just been arrested in Turkey:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34813534


I wonder if questioning of him and putting him on trial will answer any questions.
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  #225  
Old 15.11.2015, 02:17
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Finish reading all the posts ,did`t learn much . Now I have to google who won the soccer game
france 2-0.
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  #226  
Old 15.11.2015, 02:18
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Jihadi John's alleged side kick (a London drug dealer who converted while in prison) has just been arrested in Turkey:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34813534


I wonder if questioning of him and putting him on trial will answer any questions.
Whether it gets any answers or not it's the right thing to do. We are a civilised society and must stick to the rule of law. We should not resort to their tactics or we become no better than them
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  #227  
Old 15.11.2015, 08:55
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Whether it gets any answers or not it's the right thing to do. We are a civilised society and must stick to the rule of law. We should not resort to their tactics or we become no better than them
Sorry Mr Chamberlain, but you are ignoring history. I'm guessing you are from the UK, so is it fair to assume that the tune would be different if this had happened in Prince Albert hall and Wembly Stadium?

If you treat them with kid gloves (like the pantywaist in Washington), they will see it as weakness and walk all over you. If you try to eliminate them, they will see it as a challenge but they will realize there is a price to be paid. Ergo, it's better to make every effort to eradicate the problem at its source using the same methods but with far more efficiency. Eventually, the threat will be reduced by attrition. 'Collateral damage' evokes so much hand-wringing, but one should consider that 'collateral damage' was not of great concern to Bomber Harris.

One thing is for sure: If you don't become one of them and be much better at it, the next generation or two of our precious 'civilised' society will have to deal with it on a much larger scale.

Time to take the lace hankie out of the sleeve and roll out the big guns. The Geneva Convention is on hold and Marquis of Queensbury has left the building.

Last edited by Brass427; 15.11.2015 at 09:57. Reason: eliminated sarcastic laughter
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  #228  
Old 15.11.2015, 08:56
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Paris attacks: Restaurant worker who saved two women: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34820093
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  #229  
Old 15.11.2015, 09:10
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Unfortunately, if you treat them with kid gloves they will see it as weakness (Obama's obvious problem) and if you try to eliminate them, they will see it as a challenge. Ergo, it's better to make every effort to eradicate the problem at its source using the same methods they use but with far more efficacy. Eventually, the threat is reduced by attrition. If you don't become one of them and be much better at it, your precious 'civilised' society will disappear in a generation or two. The Geneva Convention and Marquis of Queensbury have left the building.
perhaps the dumbest thing i've ever read
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  #230  
Old 15.11.2015, 09:24
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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france 2-0.
Didn't realise the game actually continued.
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  #231  
Old 15.11.2015, 09:39
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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perhaps the dumbest thing i've ever read
It's certainly in the running.
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  #232  
Old 15.11.2015, 09:49
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Didn't realise the game actually continued.
The authorities, or whoever was in charge, decided not to stop the game or warn the players that anything had happened. The only sign that something was potentially wrong was when Hollande left suddenly during the first half of the game.

Apparently, the idea was to prevent a potentially disastrous panic among the spectators. This way the organizers had time to plan a safe evacuation of the stadium.
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  #233  
Old 15.11.2015, 10:09
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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BBC News said that at least one was a Syrian refugee who arrived via Greece
So far, it's only about a passport found in the Bataclan. The connection with Syria and IS is established as witnesses declared the terrorists talk clearly about the Syrian conflict during the hostage-taking.

The terrorist identified with certainty is born in Courcouronnes, a very French place far away from Syria. Omar Ismaïl Mostefaï was in Turkey recently, so that a military training and participation in Syrian conflict is probable but they are still trying to figure that out.
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  #234  
Old 15.11.2015, 10:13
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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The authorities, or whoever was in charge, decided not to stop the game or warn the players that anything had happened. The only sign that something was potentially wrong was when Hollande left suddenly during the first half of the game.

Apparently, the idea was to prevent a potentially disastrous panic among the spectators. This way the organizers had time to plan a safe evacuation of the stadium.
Did phones not work in the Stadium? Nobody got a text telling them what was happening outside? Bizarre.
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  #235  
Old 15.11.2015, 10:16
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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The terrorist identified with certainty is born in Courcouronnes, a very French place far away from Syria. Omar Ismaïl Mostefaï...
Identified by a severed fingertip found on the scene.
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  #236  
Old 15.11.2015, 10:23
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Identified by a severed fingertip found on the scene.
I thought that instead of resurrecting the culprit from grave, they used his DNA.

Paris attacks: Omar Ismail Mostefai identified as assailant
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34825080
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  #237  
Old 15.11.2015, 10:45
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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I'd imagine that to them, they didn't kill any innocent people.



just concerning Iraq, at least 15,000 deaths as a direct result of US led forces:

"On a per-day basis, the highest intensity of civilian killings over a sustained period occurred during the first three “Shock and Awe” weeks of the 2003 invasion, when civilian deaths averaged 319 per day and totalled over 6,716 by April 9th, nearly all attributable to US-led coalition-forces"

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/2011/




Again, depends who defines 'innocent'. Maybe in their eyes, none. Don't get me wrong, they sure seem to enjoy killing people - and i'm no apologist for murderers.



Oh come on, don't put words in my mouth… I'm not talking about total deaths, but about deaths caused directly by the West to Mideast civilians compared to deaths caused by Mideast terrorists to Western civilians. When they kill each other 'we're' not necessarily responsible. Though we've armed/trained many of them and manipulate them like marionettes...
About "About "just concerning Iraq, at least 15,000 deaths as a direct result of US led forces:" Indeed and from the link you posted there were a total of circa 114,000 civilian deaths so only 14% as a direct result of US led forces, thank you for making my point for me.
I quote "The total number of violent civilian deaths recorded since the 2003 invasion has now exceeded 114,000."

About "'I'm not talking about total deaths, but about deaths caused directly by the West to Mideast civilians compared to deaths caused by Mideast terrorists to Western civilians." Ah a new definition!
The number of people killed by Mid East terrorists is huge but you want to ignore most of them because they are not "Western civilians" even though they are still innocent civilians who are humans with families and friends. This is a very artificial comparison.

About "Again, depends who defines 'innocent'. Maybe in their eyes, none. Don't get me wrong, they sure seem to enjoy killing people - and i'm no apologist for murderers." Their God defines 'innocent' and so won't hand out the goodies they are expecting

Last edited by marton; 15.11.2015 at 11:01.
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  #238  
Old 15.11.2015, 10:46
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Whether it gets any answers or not it's the right thing to do. We are a civilised society and must stick to the rule of law. We should not resort to their tactics or we become no better than them
Absolutely right.

The biggest problem is/has been a handful of leaders with Cameron being one of them, who have no idea what they are really dealing with. If you were his (Cameron for example) advisor and simply told him that retaliation (and quick justice) will lead to many innocent people being killed (especially if you boast about it like the French) then perhaps he (they) would think twice. You can never win 100% over Guerilla tactics - there will always have to be sacrifice.

The islamic organisations who commit these acts don't necessarily see things in the long run, they feel they have been disrespected (or their prophet) and this is the way to balance that bias. I'm not saying they are right to do this but this is the way they do it, they operate much like the 12-16 year olds in gangs on British streets, respect is everything..

Some bad shit must have happened during the invasions, much more than we have ever learned of through the press and they are taking revenge (for Iraq) for example, they even told us this. The easiest thing to do is listen to what they are saying, not necessarily bow down to that but take a little care about it because if not, innocent lives will be lost and in some ways, western leaders are directly or indirectly responsible for that, every time.

I don't expect lost cases (like Richdog) will ever put 2 & 2 together but that is simply how it is. I'm sure I'll be misquoted but... I only want a case where this does not happen again where innocent lives will be lost.

Many of our leaders are really useless leaders especially in terms of diplomacy.
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  #239  
Old 15.11.2015, 10:48
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Should be easy enough to check if any of the terrorists came in as refugees; they are all supposed to be fingerprinted and entered into the Eurodac fingerprint database.
"Supposed to" are the key words. In reality...

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Of the 122,000 migrants who have arrived in Italy so far this year, only 80,000 have agreed to be identified, according to figures from the Italian police.
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‘People are refusing to have their fingerprints taken. Just look at the way Greece is laid out, there are all these islands. It’s absolutely impossible if you’ve got 10,000 people coming in each day,’ he said.
‘There are people who slip away who are never identified, never registered.
Normally, people from the ME or Africa would need to apply for a visa, undergo a background check, etc. But right now, thousands of people from these countries are coming in daily without even a passport, refusing to be fingerprinted, etc.

For a terrorist, it's a golden opportunity. Not only does he not have to apply for a visa, but he's given free food and housing along the way
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  #240  
Old 15.11.2015, 10:52
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Holy crap, just watching the video footage on ITV news, people staggering out of the theatre shot, and others hanging off of window ledges... by our Western coddled standards this is horrendous and completely surreal.
Maybe you should just stick to watching Family Guy..
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