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  #241  
Old 15.11.2015, 11:01
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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For a terrorist, it's a golden opportunity. Not only does he not have to apply for a visa, but he's given free food and housing along the way
In a French context, terrorist have been French citizens born in France or who grew up in France, but who radicalized after contacts with predicators discretely living in Belgium, France or the UK. It was the case for Coulibaly in January, like Omar Mustefaï on friday. Time will tell if it was also the case for the others on friday.

The link asylum/terrorism is not established for France right now. I understand the fear that it will be at some point, but the present terrorists spent their lives in Europe.
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  #242  
Old 15.11.2015, 11:18
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

- the syrian passports found are probably fake according to US intelligence service and french police (source CBS news). Numbers and photos do not match with genuine syrian passports.

- a car used by terrorist was found in Montreuil, this confirms that the third team (responsible for the massacre in the different restaurants) is on the run.
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  #243  
Old 15.11.2015, 11:32
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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About "About "just concerning Iraq, at least 15,000 deaths as a direct result of US led forces:" Indeed and from the link you posted there were a total of circa 114,000 civilian deaths so only 14% as a direct result of US led forces, thank you for making my point for me.
I quote "The total number of violent civilian deaths recorded since the 2003 invasion has now exceeded 114,000."
Are you in some way trying to justify the deaths of 15,000 innocent civilians at the hands of the west as not being a bad thing, based on the fact that even more people have died in general? Is that the point that i've supposedly made for you?

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About "'I'm not talking about total deaths, but about deaths caused directly by the West to Mideast civilians compared to deaths caused by Mideast terrorists to Western civilians." Ah a new definition!

The number of people killed by Mid East terrorists is huge but you want to ignore most of them because they are not "Western civilians" even though they are still innocent civilians who are humans with families and friends. This is a very artificial comparison.
No, not a new definition at all. Exactly as I had said in my original post that you've attempted to rebut.

I'm not denying or ignoring the fact that Mid East terrorists have killed large (massive)numbers of people. I'm also not ignoring the murders of people who don't happen to be Western civilians, although most of the world seems to be doing just that. Where is the global outrage and news coverage concerning the attack in Beirut a few days ago? 43 people murdered there, and hardly a mention in the press.

http://usuncut.com/world/beirut-this...get-any-media/

Funny how you now personally accuse me of being ignorant because I exposed the holes in your argument..

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Their God defines 'innocent' and so won't hand out the goodies they are expecting
Try telling them that. They're just following what they believe to be the word of god:

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"


Or do you think that these particular terrorists had only political motives, and gave no thought to becoming jihadist martyrs? They must have just been joking when they shouted 'Allahu Akbar' while spraying a crowd of teenagers with shotgun blasts...


Marton, your self-righteousness is clearly evident. You think they are the bad guys because they have killed more people than 'we' have. Therefore we can pretend that there is no civilian blood on our hands, and justify the killing of innocents when we do it.

You don't take losing an argument well, now, do you?
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  #244  
Old 15.11.2015, 11:47
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Whether it gets any answers or not it's the right thing to do. We are a civilised society and must stick to the rule of law. We should not resort to their tactics or we become no better than them
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Sorry Mr Chamberlain, but you are ignoring history. I'm guessing you are from the UK, so is it fair to assume that the tune would be different if this had happened in Prince Albert hall and Wembly Stadium?

If you treat them with kid gloves (like the pantywaist in Washington), they will see it as weakness and walk all over you. If you try to eliminate them, they will see it as a challenge but they will realize there is a price to be paid. Ergo, it's better to make every effort to eradicate the problem at its source using the same methods but with far more efficiency. Eventually, the threat will be reduced by attrition. 'Collateral damage' evokes so much hand-wringing, but one should consider that 'collateral damage' was not of great concern to Bomber Harris.

One thing is for sure: If you don't become one of them and be much better at it, the next generation or two of our precious 'civilised' society will have to deal with it on a much larger scale.

Time to take the lace hankie out of the sleeve and roll out the big guns. The Geneva Convention is on hold and Marquis of Queensbury has left the building.

I think this is the conundrum we are stuck at, trying to apply civilised rules to an uncivilised group. Instead of upholding civilisation, it only ties our hands from dealing with what threatens civilisation itself.

I would be for suspending civil rights for those who deprive others of it. This would have to be carried out by the state as matters of principled laws, as it is the primary role of the state to protect its citizens. We do this already for many kinds of crimes. The right to murder is NOT a civil right.

I would start of with waiving the right to privacy. In this situation, I think it is the responsibility of the state to expand surveillance, and even suspend the right to free association for groups who are intent on destroying civilisation.
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  #245  
Old 15.11.2015, 11:48
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Are you in some way trying to justify the deaths of 15,000 innocent civilians at the hands of the west as not being a bad thing, based on the fact that even more people have died in general? Is that the point that i've supposedly made for you?



No, not a new definition at all. Exactly as I had said in my original post that you've attempted to rebut.

I'm not denying or ignoring the fact that Mid East terrorists have killed large (massive)numbers of people. I'm also not ignoring the murders of people who don't happen to be Western civilians, although most of the world seems to be doing just that. Where is the global outrage and news coverage concerning the attack in Beirut a few days ago? 43 people murdered there, and hardly a mention in the press.

http://usuncut.com/world/beirut-this...get-any-media/

Funny how you now personally accuse me of being ignorant because I exposed the holes in your argument..



Try telling them that. They're just following what they believe to be the word of god:

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"


Or do you think that these particular terrorists had only political motives, and gave no thought to becoming jihadist martyrs? They must have just been joking when they shouted 'Allahu Akbar' while spraying a crowd of teenagers with shotgun blasts...


Marton, your self-righteousness is clearly evident. You think they are the bad guys because they have killed more people than 'we' have. Therefore we can pretend that there is no civilian blood on our hands, and justify the killing of innocents when we do it.

You don't take losing an argument well, now, do you?

About "Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Thanks again for making my point for me; these attackers made no attempt to identify "disbelievers" they just killed randomly. Therefore they could not correctly use this quote to justify their actions.


About "trying to justify the deaths......" No, I was simply correcting what you wrote when you stated the West had killed more innocents than.....


About "You think they are the bad guys because they have killed more people ......" Every murderer is a bad guy even if they only killed one.
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  #246  
Old 15.11.2015, 12:19
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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About "Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Thanks again for making my point for me; these attackers made no attempt to identify "disbelievers" they just killed randomly. Therefore they could not correctly use this quote to justify their actions.
Maybe, but this takes us back to my original point. They likely justify the killing of innocent bystanders the same way the West does. Or they could have taken this verse to heart:

Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."


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About "You think they are the bad guys because they have killed more people ......" Every murderer is a bad guy even if they only killed one.
I'm glad we agree on this
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  #247  
Old 15.11.2015, 12:26
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Oh, you two. Sunday is for Bible Study, Saturday for Torah Study. Don't you think Quran study is for Friday?
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  #248  
Old 15.11.2015, 12:47
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Ok here's my answer to the internal terrorists.. The authorities always seem to announce that terrorist xxx was on the radar for some time or his brother/sister friend was on the radar. I bet you anything that once all of the Paris attackers are identified half of them will be known to the French authorities..

So the simple answer is to kill them first.. Instead of trying to decrypt emails, trying to follow people, trying to put pieces together, waiting until something bad happens, just execute them quietly.

Put together a kill squad and systematically go through the list of known radicals and visit each one and take them out. Turn the fear around, instead of the public being afraid to go for dinner, make the radicals afraid of the visit at 3am from the kill squad.

There is no discussion with these people, they don't really have an agenda, we can't offer them anything to make peace, there is no morality.. I really don't see a peaceful way to fix the problem, the only answer I see is to play the game by their rules.

And once this is done, the west needs to stop meddling with the middle east, pull out and leave them to run their own affairs.

But hey.. None of the above will ever happen.
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  #249  
Old 15.11.2015, 12:54
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

John_H, you've topped Brass427 in the depths of your stupidity. Only without any sarcasm. Hats off to you.

Last edited by pilatus1; 15.11.2015 at 13:15.
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  #250  
Old 15.11.2015, 13:16
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Oh, you two. Sunday is for Bible Study, Saturday for Torah Study. Don't you think Quran study is for Friday?
I was just working towards the terrorist excuse that God guides their bullets only towards the unbelievers! In which case before starting a mission they should point the guns at their own heads and pull the trigger to check they are fully authorised!
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  #251  
Old 15.11.2015, 13:20
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Ok here's my answer to the internal terrorists.. The authorities always seem to announce that terrorist xxx was on the radar for some time or his brother/sister friend was on the radar. I bet you anything that once all of the Paris attackers are identified half of them will be known to the French authorities..

So the simple answer is to kill them first.. Instead of trying to decrypt emails, trying to follow people, trying to put pieces together, waiting until something bad happens, just execute them quietly.

Put together a kill squad and systematically go through the list of known radicals and visit each one and take them out. Turn the fear around, instead of the public being afraid to go for dinner, make the radicals afraid of the visit at 3am from the kill squad.

There is no discussion with these people, they don't really have an agenda, we can't offer them anything to make peace, there is no morality.. I really don't see a peaceful way to fix the problem, the only answer I see is to play the game by their rules.

And once this is done, the west needs to stop meddling with the middle east, pull out and leave them to run their own affairs.

But hey.. None of the above will ever happen.
Of course there is always the risk that someone who fancies your girlfriend will denounce you as a radical.
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  #252  
Old 15.11.2015, 13:26
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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John_H, you've topped Brass427 in the depths of your stupidity. Only without any sarcasm. Hats off to you.
How many times will you edit this post? Until you can think of some better way to stop the internal terrorists?

Talk nicely to them? Pay them? Shout at them? Threaten to put them in jail? Listen to their phone calls? Feed and house them? Educate their children?


Kinda isn't working is it?
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  #253  
Old 15.11.2015, 13:34
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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I was just working towards the terrorist excuse that God guides their bullets only towards the unbelievers! In which case before starting a mission they should point the guns at their own heads and pull the trigger to check they are fully authorised!
Logically, the god of terrorists would be in absentia, infirmus, or nullus. Why else would they try to do the work of their god for him?
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  #254  
Old 15.11.2015, 13:34
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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How many times will you edit this post? Until you can think of some better way to stop the internal terrorists?

Talk nicely to them? Pay them? Shout at them? Threaten to put them in jail? Listen to their phone calls? Feed and house them? Educate their children?


Kinda isn't working is it?
since I didn't quote you, and another post came in in the interim, I edited my post to make my point clear. Is that okay

You're sounding quite radical to me right now - and you've been reported.
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  #255  
Old 15.11.2015, 13:44
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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How many times will you edit this post?
Some people take a few goes to get their jokes right. Pity them.

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Until you can think of some better way to stop the internal terrorists?

Talk nicely to them? Pay them? Shout at them? Threaten to put them in jail? Listen to their phone calls? Feed and house them? Educate their children?
Is an "internal terrorist" an "internal terrorist" before they've actually committed any terrorism? I suppose we could just shoot everyone as even innocent seeming people could well be considering going to expedia and checking holidays in Syria.
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  #256  
Old 15.11.2015, 13:47
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Is an "internal terrorist" an "internal terrorist" before they've actually committed any terrorism? I suppose we could just shoot everyone as even innocent seeming people could well be considering going to expedia and checking holidays in Syria.
Oh crap, I just googled: "Syria flight discounts", should I be worried?
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Old 15.11.2015, 13:51
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

The surest way is through Turkey, the prospective member of EU.
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  #258  
Old 15.11.2015, 13:54
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Some people take a few goes to get their jokes right. Pity them.

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I suppose we could just shoot everyone as even innocent seeming people could well be considering going to expedia and checking holidays in Syria.
Even the famed witch hunts of old usually included a trial, before burning at the stake.

Same goes for the Spanish Inquisition - at least they asked
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Old 15.11.2015, 13:54
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Some people take a few goes to get their jokes right. Pity them.

Is an "internal terrorist" an "internal terrorist" before they've actually committed any terrorism? I suppose we could just shoot everyone as even innocent seeming people could well be considering going to expedia and checking holidays in Syria.
I think the authorities have a fairly good idea who's who and what they're up to.. But under western rules they haven't done anything wrong.. This is the nice society we live in. We sit back and wait until the atrocity happens and then we ask the police why they didn't arrest the bad guys sooner.

Of I think my idea is crazy, of course it will never happen.. But the status quo it's really not working right now is it.
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Old 15.11.2015, 14:00
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Is it possible that France becomes a theater of a guerrilla war waged by an oppressed ethnic-religious group, similarly to IRA and ETA tactic?
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