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  #481  
Old 16.11.2015, 22:16
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Many of those moderate Muslims are my family and friends- and they live all over, in France, in Switzerland, in the UK and South Africa, in Germany, in Turkey, in Indonesia, Australia and Tasmania- all over the world really- and they are the huge majority- as you well know, of course.
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  #482  
Old 16.11.2015, 22:18
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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The fact the Arab middle east is the second least developed part of the world is, of course, also the west's fault.
In a nutshell, this is what it is all about, isn't it?
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  #483  
Old 16.11.2015, 22:26
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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it's so private that the majority of Egyptian voted for non-democratic Islamists parties when they had the chance
To fair they were only given the choice between Morsi and Ahmed Shafiq (a former minister and remnant of the Mubarek regime). This was a man so corrupt that he demanded immunity from prosecution before agreeing to stand for election.

Electing Shafiq would have been a betrayal of the revolution, and a travesty to all those killed by Mubarek's thugs.
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  #484  
Old 16.11.2015, 22:34
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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To fair they were only given the choice between Morsi and Ahmed Shafiq (a former minister and remnant of the Mubarek regime). This was a man so corrupt that he demanded immunity from prosecution before agreeing to stand for election.

Electing Shafiq would have been a betrayal of the revolution, and a travesty to all those killed by Mubarek's thugs.

The key to democracy is selecting the "right" candidates!
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Old 16.11.2015, 22:36
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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To fair they were only given the choice between Morsi and Ahmed Shafiq (a former minister and remnant of the Mubarek regime). This was a man so corrupt that he demanded immunity from prosecution before agreeing to stand for election.

Electing Shafiq would have been a betrayal of the revolution, and a travesty to all those killed by Mubarek's thugs.
And voting for ultra-Religious would have a been a vote for the revolution ?

There were many other parties to vote for. Egyptians voted for Ultra-Religious Islamist (Muslim brotherhood) or Super-high-Ultra Islamists (Al Nour) and gave them absolute majority.

That is because Islam is a very private matter in Egypt. And of course the West which is to blame.
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Old 16.11.2015, 22:54
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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There were many other parties to vote for. Egyptians voted for Ultra-Religious Islamist (Muslim brotherhood) or Super-high-Ultra Islamists (Al Nour) and gave them absolute majority.
There were plenty of Independent candidates and a small number of minority parties, but the best organised and best disciplined were the Muslim Brotherhood. For decades they have run social institutions in the poorest areas of Egypt, things like schools, hospitals, pharmacies, food distribution centres etc.. so they were known for their pragmatism and action.
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Old 16.11.2015, 23:09
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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There were plenty of Independent candidates and a small number of minority parties, but the best organised and best disciplined were the Muslim Brotherhood. For decades they have run social institutions in the poorest areas of Egypt, things like schools, hospitals, pharmacies, food distribution centres etc.. so they were known for their pragmatism and action.
Pragmatism and action, such as killing civilians in the name of Islam. As long as they are against the west...
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  #488  
Old 16.11.2015, 23:13
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Pragmatism and action, such as killing civilians in the name of Islam. As long as they are against the west...
Sources? during the Mubrek era they were tolerated as long as they kept out of politics, but if you're talking about their founder fathers then yes.
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  #489  
Old 16.11.2015, 23:39
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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The Arab world was moving along very well indeed, arguably at a greater rate than the Christian world until Islam came along.

I do not know if there is any link to Islam. Today, average research and development spending across the 57 member states of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) is certainly very low.


From the 8th century until the 14th,the Muslim Empire spread from the Atlantic Ocean to China.
Muslim Universities were the learning centers of the world.
Commerce among nations expanded. Trade routes were extended and Muslims engaged peoples from Europe and Asia in commerce and trade.
However, during the Middle Ages, the Ottoman Empire collapsed and tribalism and nationalism returned and became part of the regional culture.


Today, the region is still boundary bound. Allegiance to one's tribe is still a strong force within the region. And innovation and entrepreneurship have failed to keep pace with the technological advances seen in the West.

There are no factories, few centres of global trade, few stock markets and little encouragement for entrepreneurs to introduce their innovations to the world.


Some people believe some fundamental concepts of Islam also play a role, for example, Fatalism is a fundamental tenet of Islam (which might be translated as ' 'What will be will be" In Western terms) and there is also bid'a — the rejection of innovations from "'outsiders".
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Old 17.11.2015, 00:04
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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There were plenty of Independent candidates and a small number of minority parties, but the best organised and best disciplined were the Muslim Brotherhood. For decades they have run social institutions in the poorest areas of Egypt, things like schools, hospitals, pharmacies, food distribution centres etc.. so they were known for their pragmatism and action.
There was also a famous German political party known for pragmatism and action, who also had good organizational skills, built autobahns,etc... what was their name?
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Old 17.11.2015, 00:09
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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there was also a famous german political party known for pragmatism and action, who also had good organizational skills, built autobahns,etc... What was their name?
The SED.
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  #492  
Old 17.11.2015, 00:22
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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The middle east is very differntly to europe. Religion is very powerful and religion secterianism can only held back in Arab countries by brutal dictators.
Sad but true. But often the citizens of that country pay a terrible price


I will admit I was in favour of the "Arab Spring" in Libya but now seeing the state of the country I was wrong.


Gadaffi was a pain but at least the citizens of the country led relatively normal lives. Now speaking to friends their children are frightened to make their daily journey to school. Their streets are now worse than gangland neighbourhoods in Detroit.
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  #493  
Old 17.11.2015, 00:36
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Sad but true. But often the citizens of that country pay a terrible price


I will admit I was in favour of the "Arab Spring" in Libya but now seeing the state of the country I was wrong.


Gadaffi was a pain but at least the citizens of the country led relatively normal lives. Now speaking to friends their children are frightened to make their daily journey to school. Their streets are now worse than gangland neighbourhoods in Detroit.

But Detroit has a bridge over to Windsor
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Old 17.11.2015, 00:40
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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There was also a famous German political party known for pragmatism and action, who also had good organizational skills, built autobahns,etc... what was their name?
Also corrupt to the bone, from the very top to the bottom.
(An often and happily ignored fact)

Even if you completely ignore the war and the holocaust for a moment, the country wasn't very well run at that time. Sustainability looks different.

Are there non-democratic societies (beyond native tribes) with little corruption an nepotism?
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Old 17.11.2015, 00:42
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Twenty-three people are in custody and weapons, including a rocket launcher have been seized, said French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve.

"a rocket launcher " like Cape Canaveral or a Scud missile?
Or maybe something got lost in the translation?
Or maybe an RPG?
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Old 17.11.2015, 00:47
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Sad but true. But often the citizens of that country pay a terrible price


I will admit I was in favour of the "Arab Spring" in Libya but now seeing the state of the country I was wrong.


Gadaffi was a pain but at least the citizens of the country led relatively normal lives. Now speaking to friends their children are frightened to make their daily journey to school. Their streets are now worse than gangland neighbourhoods in Detroit.
Spiegel.de had a diary of sorts from a journalist there.
It's either AQ or IS there.
People actually cheer for when AQ takes over their town (or takes it back), because the alternative (IS) is a hundred times worse.

Incidentally, one reason for the accelerated demise of the Gadaffi regime was the bombing of NATO states (which was supposed to be the enforcement of a no-fly zone).
This bombing was mainly headed by France at the time (IIRC) under President Sarkozy.
Germany was criticized a lot for actively denying any support - but Germany rightfully complained about the lack of general strategy of what should happen once Gadaffi was removed...
Lessons learned from the Iraq + Afghanistan-wars: zero, apparently.
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Old 17.11.2015, 00:49
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Twenty-three people are in custody and weapons, including a rocket launcher have been seized, said French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve.

"a rocket launcher " like Cape Canaveral or a Scud missile?
Or maybe something got lost in the translation?
Or maybe an RPG?


;-)

But I'm sure it was only intended for "educational purposes" ;-)
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  #498  
Old 17.11.2015, 00:53
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Spiegel.de had a diary of sorts from a journalist there.
It's either AQ or IS there.
People actually cheer for when AQ takes over their town (or takes it back), because the alternative (IS) is a hundred times worse.

Incidentally, one reason for the accelerated demise of the Gadaffi regime was the bombing of NATO states (which was supposed to be the enforcement of a no-fly zone).
This bombing was mainly headed by France at the time (IIRC) under President Sarkozy.
Germany was criticized a lot for actively denying any support - but Germany rightfully complained about the lack of general strategy of what should happen once Gadaffi was removed...
Lessons learned from the Iraq + Afghanistan-wars: zero, apparently.
About "This bombing was mainly headed by France at the time (IIRC) under President Sarkozy."

Well Gadaffi claimed Sarkozy was only elected because Gadaffi gave him a big chunk of money to run his campaign. Politicians take such statements (whether true or not) personally and seek their revenge.
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Old 17.11.2015, 01:29
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

"We are moved by what happened, at no point we could have thought that my brothers were involved in this but you must understand that we have a mother and he is still her son,"

- Mohammed Abdeslam, brother of Salah and Brahim Abdeslam - the first still on the loose and the second was an attacker killed near Bataclan.

This statement reinforces the point about 'moderates' not doing enough to castigate the 'extremists'

What the fudge does his mother having a son have to do with anything? What about the 120+ who lost their mothers, sons, daughters, etc…
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  #500  
Old 17.11.2015, 04:04
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

I loathe the phrase moderate Muslims. I find it incredibly patronising, as if every random Muslim person has to prove him/herself.

I do think Muslims do and should respond to controversial and/or notable actions of other Muslims (and I don't mean they must respond publicly). In Islam there is the concept of Umma (much like how in Judaism there is the concept of "Am") -- the idea that Muslims belong to a peoplehood and share something fundamental. It doesn't mean they are responsible for the other's actions, but that they feel something about it beyond being a mere observer/outsider. In the Jewish world, this often manifests as pride in random Jewish people (e.g. Nobel prize winners, famous actors) or the flip side embarrassment or shame when a Jewish person does something negative in public. I am assuming there is a similar phenomenon among Muslims, especially those living as a minority community.
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