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  #961  
Old 22.11.2015, 19:12
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Ye that works well for Catholicism, the Pope is head of one of the most corrupt organisations in the world who failed to stop 30 years of troubles in Ulster that were in the name of religion.
The troubles were in the name of religion ???
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  #962  
Old 22.11.2015, 19:32
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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The troubles were in the name of religion ???
Well I guess that's a whole other debate.
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  #963  
Old 22.11.2015, 19:38
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Ye that works well for Catholicism, the Pope is head of one of the most corrupt organisations in the world who failed to stop 30 years of troubles in Ulster that were in the name of religion.
When was he put in charge of Fifa?

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  #964  
Old 22.11.2015, 19:56
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Anyone? Even if your opinion then changed back again, and I'm not fussed which way your opinion changed, but .... has anyone reading this thread changed their opinion due to other posters? Maybe I'm being overly cynical.
After 48 pages of circular logic, strawman arguments, and ad hominem attacks, my opinion about "debate" on EF has certainly changed.

Heres my 2 rappen:
Kill /catch terrorists.
While doing so, don't end up creating new ones.
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  #965  
Old 22.11.2015, 20:12
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Ex US Marine O'Keepfe makes some interesting points here:

https://youtu.be/uziurhZotFI
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  #966  
Old 22.11.2015, 20:52
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Ken O'Keefe is mentally deranged as the facial tattoos should indicate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_O%27Keefe

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On Iran's Press TV program, The Agenda, while speaking on the topic of "America: Is it a Civilized Nation?", O'Keefe denied the plausibility that the September 11 attacks were committed by Osama bin Laden and the 19 hijackers. He claimed it was an inside job and that the US government and intelligence agencies, including Mossad were responsible. He also alleged that the United States government, including the President, had prior knowledge of the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor during World War II, but allowed the attacks to go ahead in order to have an excuse to enter the war.[33][34]
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Old 22.11.2015, 20:55
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Just don't know how he came up with 'Israeli Secret Intelligence Service'
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Old 22.11.2015, 21:03
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

Well he was right to say that killing Saddam and going to war with Irak, would make terrorism 'explode' in the West.
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  #969  
Old 22.11.2015, 21:11
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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48 pages! Good work, everyone; especially those contributing in parallel to the other threads on virtually the same topic.

I'm sure by the time we get to 50 pages, all these fruitful discussions would have culminated in a lasting solution to the crisis.

You are deluded enough to believe EF threads produce lasting solutions?


Please send me a bottle or two of what you are drinking!
On second thoughts I need a crate
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Old 22.11.2015, 21:29
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

For those of you who you stand French it seems as though things are kicking off in Brussels now.

http://www.rtl.be/info/regions/bruxe...es-773115.aspx

Last edited by Belgianmum; 22.11.2015 at 21:46.
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  #971  
Old 22.11.2015, 21:39
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)


I do not believe the official story of Hasna Ait Buolacehn. The official line is that she was a suicide bomber who blew herself up when the police stormed an apartment in St Denis where an alleged terrorist ringleader was hiding. This story seems completely incompatible with the recordings on which she could plainly be heard screaming “He is not my boyfriend,” immediately before the explosion. She sounds like a terrified woman trying to disassociate herself from the alleged terrorist. It was a strange battle cry for someone who believed themselves on the verge of paradise.


Then yesterday the truth emerged from forensics that she was indeed not a suicide bomber. None of the mainstream media appeared to find this in any way troubling and just in case anybody did, an anonymous member of the French Police attacking squad, who stated that Hasna was:



"trying to say she was not linked to the terrorists she had nothing to do with them and wanted to surrender" he further said, " due to prior intelligence, we knew she was trying to manipulate us"


Unfortunately this would have been a very great deal more convincing had it been stated 48 hours earlier, rather than only after the original reports that she was a suicide bomber had been corrected on forensic examination. As it is, it looks very much like a post facto justification, a new story to cover the new facts.


Besides, it is very difficult indeed to see what prior intelligence could explain if someone was genuinely trying to surrender or not. There appears to be no information available to the public that gives the slightest indication that Hasna was an extreme Islamist; what public information there is paints the opposite picture. The best the media have been able to dredge up are quotes from friends saying “if she was, then she must have been drugged or brainwashed”. Google it yourself.


But even were she an extreme Islamist, that does not mean she was not attempting to surrender. All of which is a bit nugatory if she were then killed by an explosion triggered by the terrorists themselves. But the changing story about Hasna makes me less than confident that is what actually happened.


In Paris it appears plain that the police were in a situation of confrontation with armed suspects; I have no difficulty with the principle that the police should shoot people who are shooting at them.


There are severe intelligence disadvantages to killing people with profound knowledge of terrorist organisations. Nevertheless I can conceive of situations where simply taking out by an explosion a terrorist cell might be justified. But only if you are quite certain of the situation. The case of Hasna is to me troublingly reminiscent of the case of Jean Charles De Menezes, in that it became obvious in the days after his death that everything the police and establishment had leaked to the media about him (leaping over barriers, running through the tunnels, heavy jacket, wires protruding) was a complete, utter and quite deliberate lie.
The media could help if they were in any way rational and dispassionate, or ever questioned an official narrative.



Similar manipulation is used by the Guardian in telling us the police stormed a “terrorist apartment”. What is a “terrorist apartment”? Are the walls made of semtex? The intent of course is to assure us everybody inside was a terrorist. It is not just the Guardian. The phrase is all over the media. Again, google it.


I am worried in case Hollande’s Rambo impersonation is steamrollering justice. It may well be that Hasna was a dreadful and bloodthirsty terrorist. I do not know. It may well be she was killed by the terrorists not the police. All we know at the moment is she was in an apartment with people who allegedly were terrorists, and died in the “battle”, but I really do not trust the changing stories of the authorities.
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  #972  
Old 22.11.2015, 22:54
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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I do not believe the official story of Hasna Ait Buolacehn. .....
130 innocent people were killed in the Paris attacks, and I keep hearing Hasna's name and story over and over again? Someone who may or may not have been a terrorist, but at minimum hung around them. Maybe we should spend some time getting to know some of the other 130 victims?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34821813
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6739116.html


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48 pages! Good work, everyone; especially those contributing in parallel to the other threads on virtually the same topic.

I'm sure by the time we get to 50 pages, all these fruitful discussions would have culminated in a lasting solution to the crisis.
Crisis? What crisis?
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  #973  
Old 22.11.2015, 23:03
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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130 innocent people were killed in the Paris attacks, and I keep hearing Hasna's name and story over and over again? Someone who may or may not have been a terrorist, but at minimum hung around them. Maybe we should spend some time getting to know some of the other 130 victims?
I suspect you might be missing the point of Today Only's post.
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  #974  
Old 22.11.2015, 23:14
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Outside of France it' called " Collateral Damage " And in Switzerland "Mitgegangen Mitgefangen "
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Old 22.11.2015, 23:20
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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I suspect you might be missing the point of Today Only's post.
Oh. Still sick of hearing about Hasna tho. Maybe she was a terrorist. Maybe she wasn't. She had a difficult childhood. Can anyone here tell me something about Elif Dogan's childhood? Or Nicolas Classeau?

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Similar manipulation is used by the Guardian in telling us the police stormed a “terrorist apartment”. What is a “terrorist apartment”?
I'll go out on a limb and say "an apartment in which one or more terrorists reside or inhabit". Altho, like anything else in the world, it could vary by interpretation. If there was only a Wikipedia page that laid out the details, we could put the question to rest. But alas, there isn't.

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but I really do not trust the changing stories of the authorities.
Since her head and body parts were rolling around the street after a suicide vest detonated in the "terrorist apartment" (eg. apartment inhabited by terrorists), there was a chance she was a suicide bomber. Then after some more investigation, they realized maybe she wasn't wearing it, but someone next to her. But I'm sure there is really a more sinister motive for changing the story, if we can all put on our tin foil hats now and think what it could be
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  #976  
Old 22.11.2015, 23:24
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

I wonder how many civilians s have been killed in the recent French wave of air strikes ?

My money is on more than 130.

I don't condone any of it, but escalation is not a solution, that we should be all well aware of by now.
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  #977  
Old 22.11.2015, 23:31
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Oh. Still sick of hearing about Hasna tho. Maybe she was a terrorist. Maybe she wasn't. She had a difficult childhood. Can anyone here tell me something about Elif Dogan's childhood?
Fair enough.

Elif was Muslim from Turkish family. Like her, many Muslims lost their life, were wounded in the hands of extremists who think they have a better Islam than any othe muslim and like them, we all deserve to die.
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Old 22.11.2015, 23:34
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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Since her head and body parts were rolling around the street after a suicide vest detonated in the "terrorist apartment" (eg. apartment inhabited by terrorists), there was a chance she was a suicide bomber. Then after some more investigation, they realized maybe she wasn't wearing it, but someone next to her. But I'm sure there is really a more sinister motive for changing the story, if we can all put on our tin foil hats now and think what it could be
I don't think the French needed this woman detonating her suicide vest to start bombing Syria...if that is what some imply.
Although she could have been in the wrong place at the wrong time..(I don't really believe that tbh)

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130 innocent people were killed in the Paris attacks, and I keep hearing Hasna's name and story over and over again? Someone who may or may not have been a terrorist, but at minimum hung around them. Maybe we should spend some time getting to know some of the other 130 victims?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34821813
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6739116.html
Ridiculous, you're right.
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Old 22.11.2015, 23:54
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I do not believe the official story of Hasna Ait Buolacehn. The official line is that she was a suicide bomber who blew herself up when the police stormed an apartment in St Denis where an alleged terrorist ringleader was hiding. This story seems completely incompatible with the recordings on which she could plainly be heard screaming “He is not my boyfriend,” immediately before the explosion. She sounds like a terrified woman trying to disassociate herself from the alleged terrorist. It was a strange battle cry for someone who believed themselves on the verge of paradise.


Then yesterday the truth emerged from forensics that she was indeed not a suicide bomber. None of the mainstream media appeared to find this in any way troubling and just in case anybody did, an anonymous member of the French Police attacking squad, who stated that Hasna was:



"trying to say she was not linked to the terrorists she had nothing to do with them and wanted to surrender" he further said, " due to prior intelligence, we knew she was trying to manipulate us"


Unfortunately this would have been a very great deal more convincing had it been stated 48 hours earlier, rather than only after the original reports that she was a suicide bomber had been corrected on forensic examination. As it is, it looks very much like a post facto justification, a new story to cover the new facts.


Besides, it is very difficult indeed to see what prior intelligence could explain if someone was genuinely trying to surrender or not. There appears to be no information available to the public that gives the slightest indication that Hasna was an extreme Islamist; what public information there is paints the opposite picture. The best the media have been able to dredge up are quotes from friends saying “if she was, then she must have been drugged or brainwashed”. Google it yourself.


But even were she an extreme Islamist, that does not mean she was not attempting to surrender. All of which is a bit nugatory if she were then killed by an explosion triggered by the terrorists themselves. But the changing story about Hasna makes me less than confident that is what actually happened.


In Paris it appears plain that the police were in a situation of confrontation with armed suspects; I have no difficulty with the principle that the police should shoot people who are shooting at them.


There are severe intelligence disadvantages to killing people with profound knowledge of terrorist organisations. Nevertheless I can conceive of situations where simply taking out by an explosion a terrorist cell might be justified. But only if you are quite certain of the situation. The case of Hasna is to me troublingly reminiscent of the case of Jean Charles De Menezes, in that it became obvious in the days after his death that everything the police and establishment had leaked to the media about him (leaping over barriers, running through the tunnels, heavy jacket, wires protruding) was a complete, utter and quite deliberate lie.
The media could help if they were in any way rational and dispassionate, or ever questioned an official narrative.



Similar manipulation is used by the Guardian in telling us the police stormed a “terrorist apartment”. What is a “terrorist apartment”? Are the walls made of semtex? The intent of course is to assure us everybody inside was a terrorist. It is not just the Guardian. The phrase is all over the media. Again, google it.


I am worried in case Hollande’s Rambo impersonation is steamrollering justice. It may well be that Hasna was a dreadful and bloodthirsty terrorist. I do not know. It may well be she was killed by the terrorists not the police. All we know at the moment is she was in an apartment with people who allegedly were terrorists, and died in the “battle”, but I really do not trust the changing stories of the authorities.
This is a copy of a post on https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...ws-management/

Might be good if you mention that?
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Old 23.11.2015, 00:00
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Re: Shootings and the explosions in Paris

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...escalation is not a solution...
I am hardly advocating it, but a proper escalation of the west's military involvement in the region would very definitely put an end to what we are seeing all too often in the news. the simple reality is that nobody in the west actually wants to put an end to it.
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