Shootings and the explosions in Paris - Page 55

FrankZappa · #**1081** 20.03.2016, 12:55

I'd just like to say that this is the kind of thread that makes me stay in Englishforum. It's like a kind of pub for thinking people . Excellent.

marton · #**1082** 20.03.2016, 14:55

	Quote:	greenmount
	This article was publihed on www.politico.eu, which is not a trashy site http://www.politico.eu/article/belgi...eek-terrorism/

Interesting article, thanks. (but nothing about a riot

)

I found his comparison with Brixton to be rather odd; I would have thought this area is much more like the French "Banlieues", for example (but not only), the "unsafe" areas of Bagneux, Malakoff, Massy, Les Ulis.
Malakoff is much nearer to the centre of Paris than Brixton to London.
There were also riots in the Banlieues mainly in 1981 and 2005.

Of course it is not just Molenbeek that is a problem in Belgium.
From 2009 until 2013, 82,154 “firearms”-related cases were brought before the Belgian courts. The number of cases increased by 25% over this period.
Source.

Anyway I was not trolling

I posted facts!

He was not supported by the community
It is not a majority Jihadistic community, of course there are some Jihadists like everywhere (at least 66 in Switzerland source)
There was no riot

greenmount · #**1083** 20.03.2016, 15:41

	Quote:	marton
	Interesting article, thanks. (but nothing about a riot ) I found his comparison with Brixton to be rather odd; I would have thought this area is much more like the French "Banlieues", for example (but not only), the "unsafe" areas of Bagneux, Malakoff, Massy, Les Ulis. Malakoff is much nearer to the centre of Paris than Brixton to London. There were also riots in the Banlieues mainly in 1981 and 2005. Of course it is not just Molenbeek that is a problem in Belgium. From 2009 until 2013, 82,154 “firearms”-related cases were brought before the Belgian courts. The number of cases increased by 25% over this period. Source. Anyway I was not trolling I posted facts! He was not supported by the community It is not a majority Jihadistic community, of course there are some Jihadists like everywhere (at least 66 in Switzerland source) There was no riot

I didn't say the article was about riots, since I quoted a great deal of it in quotations marks it was obvious the article was explaining a bit more details about this area.
No-one said all its inhabitans are jihadis, this is putting words in people's mouth.

Urs Max · #**1084** 20.03.2016, 17:43

	Quote:	FunnyBone
	Europe relevance 1. The news coverage (or more appropriately the cover-up) of the mass sex attacks in Germany and Sweden. Was it one of the top media German papers that brought this to public attention?

	Quote:	Britething
	Again c.f. Cologne last NYE and what happened to quite a number of women.

Initial reports said NYE had been "peaceful" (friedlich). It's a tad difficult to report about stuff that's not even known yet. Kind of reminds me of a certain article I commented on a few posts earlier.

welt.de for instance on January 4th: "dozens of women sexually molested", that was the official number at that time.

Though perhaps Die Welt isn't mainstream in your book. Perhaps Spiegel Online counts? Also on January 4th: "60 reports on sex-based transgressions"

Ohhh, another conspiracy theory busted. Ain't that just too bad.

	Quote:	Britething
	Do you think though, that this man could have remained hidden for four months with only two or three people knowing his whereabouts ? I rather fear that he had indeed become a hero, a 'figure de proue' for a lost and disillusioned (or disenfranchised) Muslim youth.

I think it's definitely possible. For instance Julian Assange has been living the the Ecuadorian embassy for three years so a person can stay in a single house for a very long time without going nuts. Add to that a closely knit inner circle of friends and family providing all supplies and you may be able to hide for multiple months.

Siblings often can pass for one another without resembling each other that much - probably because voice, slang, gestures, etc are so very much alike. For instance we were five brothers, even our parents were usually unable to tell whether it was brother #2 or #4 or me speaking on the phone.

Britething · #**1085** 20.03.2016, 18:06

	Quote:	marton
	Interesting article, thanks. (but nothing about a riot).[]There was no riot.*

If you had read the article by the Belgian official, you would have seen that she conceded to the fact that youths threw bottles and stones at the police.
And that is how riots start, certainly. The fact that the riot police were there in *expectation* of rioting speaks volumes about how the situation was controlled.
Had they not been there, it would invariably have degenerated into a Brixton-type riot (cars overturned, police injured, shop windows destroyed, looting, etc).
This is a very volatile situation and should not be underestimated. The woman also spoke about how young Belgians and French (especially males) are recruited (into ISIS) in areas such as these.
Pretending that everything is hunkey-dorey and that the problem will now go away with the arrest of SA is foolish and short-sighted.
Investment is needed in the inner-cities, and education has to be one of the keys.

kriss kross · #**1086** 20.03.2016, 19:41

	Quote:	Urs Max
	welt.de for instance on January 4th: "dozens of women sexually molested", that was the official number at that time. Though perhaps Die Welt isn't mainstream in your book. Perhaps Spiegel Online counts? Also on January 4th: "60 reports on sex-based transgressions" Ohhh, another conspiracy theory busted. Ain't that just too bad.

If you're so sure of yourself then why did it take the major newspapers four days to start reporting about NYE?

And why did ZDF later apologize for the delay?

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Initial reports said NYE had been "peaceful" (friedlich). It's a tad difficult to report about stuff that's not even known yet.

This statement seems to contradict itself.
''It's a tad difficult to report about stuff that's not even known yet''
Then why would they initially report that NYE was peaceful?

Urs Max · #**1087** 20.03.2016, 23:11

Initial police bulletin from january 1: peaceful.

Then the reports started pouring in, or being considered for the bulletin, whichever applies. Jan 2 (yes, Süddeutsche is a major newsoutlet): 30. Numbers kept rising daily with the official tally of 60 reports by january 4. There's a reason (or more than one) that the police chief got fired soon afterwards.

This page provides what I consider a good overview, including links to the police bulletins for the first three days: It's critical without going over the top.

The "1000 offenders" btw came from the local newpaper "Kölner Anzeiger". Unfortunately once it was clear that the number was comletely made it had already served its purpose, which is to make the journal sell.

Oh and btw WDR, also a state owned (öffentlich-rechtlich) news station, published the first report on the events on januar 1st, questioning the veracity of the police bulletin. But again, rational discussion doesn't sell, it's much easier to create hyperbole and instill hatred.

parnell · #**1088** 20.03.2016, 23:22

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Initial police bulletin from january 1: peaceful. Then the reports started pouring in, or being considered for the bulletin, whichever applies. Jan 2 (yes, Süddeutsche is a major newsoutlet): 30. Numbers kept rising daily with the official tally of 60 reports by january 4. There's a reason (or more than one) that the police chief got fired soon afterwards. See, that wasn't so difficult.

Ahem :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Ye...lts_in_Germany

	Quote:
	Several media outlets at first ignored the story and only started reporting on the incidents on 5 January, after a wave of anger on social media made covering them unavoidable.[34] This delay was criticised by several politicians, including Hans-Peter Friedrich.[161] The public television channel ZDF later acknowledged that they had failed to report on the incidents despite having sufficient knowledge to do so.[162][163] ZDF later called the delay in reporting a "clear misjudgment", and said since then, it has been "over-whelmed with hate and anger".[146] This has reinforced discontent previously held by the German public with news coverage relating to the European migrant crisis, as well as a readiness to support the idea of the "Lügenpresse" (literally lying press).[146][164] Cologne mayor Henriette Reker said in a press conference on 5 January that there was "no evidence, that people who are residing in Cologne as refugees are amongst the perpetrators". Cologne's police president, Wolfgang Albers, stated that "the police has no knowledge about the offenders".[36] .... According to Albers, who was subsequently transferred to provisional retirement for his handling of the situation, the alleged perpetrators were all men "of Arab or North African appearance" between the ages of 15 and 35, who could not speak German.[1][4][43][44] The perpetrators were reported to have been several groups of heavily intoxicated men of Arab or North African appearance, who emerged from a gathering of up to 1,000 men.[15][16][45] On 7 January, several anonymous police officers from Cologne denied statements that the police did not know the nationality of the perpetrators; they told the press that "most of them" would have been freshly arrived asylum seekers. Contradicting statements from Cologne police leaders, these officers said that the identities of many people, including those who were arrested, had been thoroughly checked, so that police knew which groups of people were involved.[46] Around 70 people had been checked, and several brought to police stations or taken into custody. The majority of those in detention were Syrians.[46] The officers denied that the sexual harassment was only incidental, saying the truth was "exactly the opposite". Most of the perpetrators sought primarily to commit sexual offenses, or in their words "sexual amusement".[47] Arnold Plickert, North Rhine Westphalia's representative of German police union Gewerkschaft der Polizei, confirmed that asylum seekers were "definitely" involved.[46][48] On 8 January, the Federal Ministry of the Interior acknowledged that two-thirds of the suspects checked by the Federal Police — who are responsible for the railways and railway stations in Germany — in Cologne were asylum seekers. The same report stated that 31 suspects were identified by name, including 18 asylum seekers. In total, the suspects were nine Algerians, eight Moroccans, four Syrians, five Iranians, two Germans, an Iraqi, a Serb, and an American.[27] Another report on the same day stated that stolen mobile phones were located by the police within or in the vicinity of refugees' residences.[49]

Britething · #**1089** 20.03.2016, 23:36

Yes, Parnell, the wiki article was the one I later consulted when a neighbour mentioned the Cologne business during a conversation about current affairs. I expressed surprise and said I hadn't heard anything about it.

But this is the point. I think increasingly we are only told what it is convenient for the poiticians to allow the media to express. Generally accepted figures for the number of cases of rape/sexual assault now are estimated to be around 500 for NYE 2015/2106.

This is not a conspiracy theory either. Tensions are running high. France is still living with the maximum level of 'Vigipirate' and ISIS have promised that London is next :
'an act of such magnitude that the hair of children will turn white in fear'.
So the hyperbole is coming from where ?

kriss kross · #**1090** 20.03.2016, 23:47

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Then the reports started pouring in, or being considered for the bulletin, whichever applies. Jan 2 (yes, Süddeutsche is a major newsoutlet): 30. Numbers kept rising daily with the official tally of 60 reports by january 4. There's a reason (or more than one) that the police chief got fired soon afterwards.

I stand corrected, I genuinely didn't realize that a major newspaper had reported it so early. (Even though it seems strange they didn't mention anything about the offenders being almost exclusively immigrants)

But it still seems that the majority of German media were very slow (reluctant?) to report about it.
If you're suggesting this was due to the police covering it up and not informing the media then you'll also have to explain why ZDF later apologized.

Blueangel · #**1091** 21.03.2016, 00:09

	Quote:	Britething
	This is not a conspiracy theory either. Tensions are running high. France is still living with the maximum level of 'Vigipirate' and ISIS have promised that London is next : 'an act of such magnitude that the hair of children will turn white in fear'. So the hyperbole is coming from where ?

A year ago, they were saying Rome is next on their videos. I was all ready, with my lighter on full whack and can of hairspray to flame the buggers, but they never showed up.

Sorry of that sounds flippant, but I feel we've lived most of our lives now with threats from one bunch of nutters or another. I do usually have an action plan roughly formed in my head and am vigilant. Guess it comes from being in a bomb blast when I was 9...who knows.

Urs Max · #**1092** 21.03.2016, 00:16

They were slow, no doubt. However I'm not suggesting any reasons, and I definitely won't try to explain ZDF publishing policy.

What I do say is that it's false to say that the events were swept under the rug by all major news outlets. And that logic leaves little ground for conspiracy theories like those saying the non-publishing was intentional, as when one source publishes it's nearly impossible to contain the news. And I've shown that more than one did indeed publish.

As for the nationalities: How could anybody seriously claim to know the nationalities of the perpetrators befor they were identified, let alone sentenced? It's like parnells wiki quote where some anonymous police officers (how convenient, that's impossible to prove wrong) claim that they are freshly arrived asylum seekers. Well, the newly arrived are mostly from Syria and Iraq while the identified suspects mostly come from northern Africa. Or the 1'000 perpetrators, that number was drawn out of thin air but that doesn't matter for the originators as the headlines served their aim, i.e. increased sales.

Britething · #**1093** 21.03.2016, 00:32

From The Telegraph - Jan 31

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...air-white.html

Again, don't shoot the messenger. I hope it's all swagger.

My brother lives in London.

parnell · #**1094** 21.03.2016, 00:33

It's like parnells wiki quote where some anonymous police officers (how convenient, that's impossible to prove wrong) claim that they are freshly arrived asylum seekers. Well, the newly arrived are mostly from Syria and Iraq while the identified suspects mostly come from northern Africa. Or the 1'000 perpetrators, that number was drawn out of thin air but that doesn't matter for the originators as the headlines served their aim, i.e. increased sales.[/QUOTE]

You seriously expect police officers in Germany of all places to come out without identity protection and directly contradict not only their superior officer but also the minister for the interior's statement??? Bit naive I would say.

	Quote:	Urs Max
	As for the nationalities: How could anybody seriously claim to know the nationalities of the perpetrators befor they were identified, let alone sentenced?

Because a huge number of men were actually detained on that night - most of them refugees - as we now know with 100% certainty - and let go - as per orders not to prosecute offenders which would cause the Chancellor to look bad. Even a female officer herself was sexually assaulted.

You seem to have missed the bit about the huge twitter campaign that blew the lid off the Cologne scandal - it was a 5 full days before the true extent of what happened - over 100 hours was broadcast around the world despite the event occurring in a city square over a few hours with over 100 police present.

kriss kross · #**1095** 21.03.2016, 00:41

	Quote:	Urs Max
	What I do say is that it's false to say that the events were swept under the rug by all major news outlets.

Correct, the events were not swept under the rug by all major news outlets.
Yet you acknowledge that the majority of media in Germany were slow to report about it and you have no reasonable explanation for it.
It therefore seems to me quite reasonable for people to suggest that the media in Germany (not all, but the majority) did have some sort of agenda and perhaps conspired to try and hide/downplay this story from the public.

Regarding the nationalities of the attackers, of course they wouldn't have known exactly where they were from, however I'm guessing anybody that was present could of told you that they were not Germans.

Blueangel · #**1096** 21.03.2016, 00:54

	Quote:	Britething
	From The Telegraph - Jan 31 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...air-white.html

Just to isolate this phrase... “turn children's hair white". I would think most of us here are familiar with the idea that someone's hair can go white overnight after a fright, but does this concept exist in cultures outside of Europe? It feels like a very British thing to say.

Britething · #**1097** 21.03.2016, 01:01

	Quote:	Blueangel
	Just to isolate this phrase... “turn children's hair white". I would think most of us here are familiar with the idea that someone's hair can go white overnight after a fright, but does this concept exist in cultures outside of Europe? It feels like a very British thing to say.

Odd, isn't it. It gave me a very sinister feeling when I first read it.
Apparently a reference to the Koran, something about a verse describing Judgement Day.

Blueangel · #**1098** 21.03.2016, 01:41

I always wonder how literally we should take these threats, but there's probably experts and police slaving over theories as we speak.

Remember being told Al Qaeda attacks were supposed to be North, South, East, West, which we saw on 7/7, but failed in Madrid. IRA tended to target events. But Daesh, with the execption of the Charlie Hebdo attack, appear to be more random.

Chuff · #**1099** 21.03.2016, 08:44

I think ground action is needed now. Re-take the oil fields that provide them with almost $2m revenue per day and hunt down the main forces and weapons caches. While you will never catch them all, you can't easily hide major armament and you could cut off their ability to take on armies.

Britething · #**1100** 21.03.2016, 09:16

	Quote:	Chuff
	I think ground action is needed now. Re-take the oil fields that provide them with almost $2m revenue per day and hunt down the main forces and weapons caches. While you will never catch them all, you can't easily hide major armament and you could cut off their ability to take on armies.

That's all well and good, but they have created a propaganda machine that now feeds them with disillusioned European youths, prepared to return here and blow themselves up while taking as many innocent lives as they can.

Surveillance of their websites, dismantling of their networks (which is why the French authorities want to be able to question SA) and education in inner cities so that more unemployed youngsters don't allow themselves to be brainwashed. These are the keys, I think.

But we will undoubtedly see more operations like the one in Paris. The secret services uncover several projects per month apparently.