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  #181  
Old 24.11.2015, 01:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Kind of logical, isn't it? In the Quran, Allah says he perfected Islam for Muslims. Find me a muslim who doesn't believe that, then you'll find a muslim who doesn't really believe that verse from the Quran.

And yes, I have discussed with plenty of Muslims.
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To me, this phrase doesn't really make sense. It means "perfected the rules for those who follow them". Sort of a truism, right?
Well the basic issue with taking any holy book literally is that whatever verse you choose to believe then you can usually find another verse that says the opposite.
Plus you anyway have the arguments about what individual verses actually mean and consequent competing interpretations.
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  #182  
Old 24.11.2015, 02:05
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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New Testament is 100% humanism, that's why the Protestant Reformation were possible. What will never happens in Islam.
Yet it gave rise to the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and this


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  #183  
Old 24.11.2015, 02:21
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Perfect argument. In the age of internet let's tolerate terrorism and woman abuse. Then, after 500 more years, reformation may come to Islam.
As this excellent article by Mehdi Hasan states, careful what you wish for.
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  #184  
Old 24.11.2015, 02:40
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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New Testament is 100% humanism, that's why the Protestant Reformation were possible. What will never happens in Islam.
Must be why even Jesus is described as approving slavery.
$Though it's good to see you don't cherrypick
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  #185  
Old 24.11.2015, 02:49
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Well I don't think that the idea od Armaggeddon is so much better then ISIS, infact (of course the one is religious belief, the other reality, unfortunately; but it doesn't come up out of a sudden, from nothing).


If Jesus was amongst us, I guess he got arrested the day he showed up.
Not talking about his Biblical father.
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  #186  
Old 24.11.2015, 07:39
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Perfect argument. In the age of internet let's tolerate terrorism and woman abuse. Then, after 500 more years, reformation may come to Islam.
Right... cause Christians are for gender equality. How many bible verses do you want me to quote to prove you wrong? The new testament is full of stuff like this:

“Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.” 1 Timothy 2:11-15
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  #187  
Old 24.11.2015, 08:35
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Right... cause Christians are for gender equality. How many bible verses do you want me to quote to prove you wrong? The new testament is full of stuff like this:

“Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.” 1 Timothy 2:11-15
As pointed out you can cherry pick your verses to suit your doctrines. It is absolutely true that that particular verse has been used so often to subjugate women. But it must be weighed against things like 2 Timothy 1:5, which indicates young Tim was taught his faith by his mother and grandmother, and also verses like Galatians 3:25 which says "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.". There were definitely women missionaries and co-workers. In Philippians 4:2-3 Euodia and Syntyche are called Paul's fellow-workers in the gospel. There are in the NT several women who were leaders within the church: Prisca, Lydia, Phoebe, Nympha ... Kind of hard if they weren't allowed to teach or preach or have authority over men.

The problem with Paul's letters is that we don't know exactly what issues he was addressing in the them, so we don't know the context.

In practice, there are many women preachers and teachers in different Christian denominations (even fundamentalist) and always have been, so it's obvious that differing interpretations exist.
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  #188  
Old 24.11.2015, 08:52
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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As this excellent article by Mehdi Hasan states, careful what you wish for.
I really don't like any of his articles which all basically say "leave us Muslims alone, you don't understand us". He's basically an apologist for radical Islam
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  #189  
Old 24.11.2015, 08:54
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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In practice, there are many women preachers and teachers in different Christian denominations (even fundamentalist) and always have been, so it's obvious that differing interpretations exist.
A few years ago, one of my friends who is from a relatively small place in UK (England) told me that the woman priest in her village received threat letters and eventually decided to move to other place (parish).. As my friend put it "some people were not ready".. Frankly, no, I don't really think that people (men) are totally OK with this. Too many centuries of made domination in which women were only allowed to devote their lives "to God" in monasteries...that will not go away so soon, miraculously..Of course we already talk from a whole different level in Christianity, but still.

Last edited by greenmount; 24.11.2015 at 09:08.
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  #190  
Old 24.11.2015, 09:17
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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As this excellent article by Mehdi Hasan states, careful what you wish for.
From what I read, he basically laid all the failings of the Muslim world at the West's door. Sounds like a bit of a knobhead to be honest.

By reformation, I think most people mean more tolerance and that most radical of ideas...the equality of women.
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  #191  
Old 24.11.2015, 09:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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In countries with very few Muslims but with extreme poverty or inequality, we see the same patterns - Burundi and Rwanda where people are almost exclusively Catholic, urban/African American USA (street crime, gang violence perpetrated by disaffected youth), Burmese clergy etc etc. The difference is there's no supranational element to these - they stay out of the news because the violence is internal - there's nowhere to export the violence to and no reason to do it.
Sorry, but those people that planned and conducted the Paris attacks (bar one or two, who came from ME with the refugee waves apparently) were no victims. They were born and lived in free, tolerant and prosperous countries, so enjoyed (or could have) free access to education, culture and social services. Even religious freedom.
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  #192  
Old 24.11.2015, 11:01
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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As this excellent article by Mehdi Hasan states, careful what you wish for.
He starts the article laying out exactly all the reasons why Islam needs to be reformed...and then gives some very weak and obscure reasons why it shouldn't be reformed. As he himself pointed out, alot of people are calling for it. If there isn't some "loosening of the screws" and "liberalizing" the religion a bit, it will be stuck in the stone ages forever.
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  #193  
Old 24.11.2015, 11:07
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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OK, no proof then
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What verse are we talking about phos?
Is there a believing Muslim who does not think Islam is perfect? Everyone I have spoken to says it is perfect, does not need change, and it is people who must conform, obey and change.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...=822&Itemid=60


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Well the basic issue with taking any holy book literally is that whatever verse you choose to believe then you can usually find another verse that says the opposite.
Plus you anyway have the arguments about what individual verses actually mean and consequent competing interpretations.
Do you find one that is opposite to that?
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  #194  
Old 24.11.2015, 11:13
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Kind of logical, isn't it? In the Quran, Allah says he perfected Islam for Muslims. Find me a muslim who doesn't believe that, then you'll find a muslim who doesn't really believe that verse from the Quran.

And yes, I have discussed with plenty of Muslims.

Classic Phos - take two unrelated facts and conjoin them to suit a twisted narrative.


Muslims believe god perfected Islam as a way to live ones life - but only in so far as that the Koran should be considered the 'guidebook'. It is the (metaphorical) word of god, yes, but not a list of commandments that god expects every man woman and child to recreate, regardless of the environment around them. It is the word of god only in so far as it was passed down from god, not that it was, verbatim, what he or she said. The Koran itself is an interpretation of gods message, and just happens to be the first interpretation. Thus, one should interpret the Koran (itself an interpretation) as best as one can - that is the responsibility of each individual Muslim, everywhere. The book is supposed to be interpreted to suit the times and environment of the reader. Hence, there are vastly different yet equally Islamic countries and cultures around the world.


This concept, that the book can be interpreted individually, that it can be applied universally, is the 'perfect' part - that it is suitable for everyone, everywhere, according to their own circumstances.


The only commonality between Muslims globally are the 5 pillars.


I've never met a single Muslim who believes the Koran is the literal word of god.
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  #195  
Old 24.11.2015, 11:21
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Christians have been known to "wrestle with God", meaning we struggle with what is said in scripture, and how to apply it in the realities of our lives. This process of "wrestling with God" is depicted with Jacob in Genesis. Out of this process of wrestling comes about a new vision and understanding of what it means to be a Christian in our present reality and circumstances. So you won't really see Christians applying scripture literally and verbatim, it is contextualized for the present realities of their lives.

It is a continual process of reform, of the individual.
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  #196  
Old 24.11.2015, 11:23
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Classic Phos - take two unrelated facts and conjoin them to suit a twisted narrative.
...
I've never met a single Muslim who believes the Koran is the literal word of god.
Okay. I have been told by many Muslims that Islam is perfect and needs no new innovations.
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  #197  
Old 24.11.2015, 12:27
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Is there a believing Muslim who does not think Islam is perfect? Everyone I have spoken to says it is perfect, does not need change, and it is people who must conform, obey and change.



Well you have not made clear what is your understanding of "perfect" so it is hard to answer you in your context.


About "Do you find one that is opposite to that" No, you already did? Some examples are
  • Now it is perfect, nothing is perfect, but it is bound to deteriorate.' The Prophet said,
  • Islam was strange in its beginning and will return strange once more.
What you have is your theory but no proof.

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Okay. I have been told by many Muslims that Islam is perfect and needs no new innovations.




LOL, This is what they call a limited statistical sample.
How many of the 1.6 Billion did you talk to? Maybe 0.0000000001%
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  #198  
Old 24.11.2015, 12:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Christians have been known to "wrestle with God", meaning we struggle with what is said in scripture, and how to apply it in the realities of our lives. This process of "wrestling with God" is depicted with Jacob in Genesis. Out of this process of wrestling comes about a new vision and understanding of what it means to be a Christian in our present reality and circumstances. So you won't really see Christians applying scripture literally and verbatim, it is contextualized for the present realities of their lives.

It is a continual process of reform, of the individual.

About "So you won't really see Christians applying scripture literally and verbatim" You have never visited the US "Bible Belt"?
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Old 24.11.2015, 12:40
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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About "So you won't really see Christians applying scripture literally and verbatim" You have never visited the US "Bible Belt"?
Yes, have you? And you saw it in its entirety?
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  #200  
Old 24.11.2015, 12:43
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Any chance you two could take this offline? It doesn't seem to be going anywhere except for round in circles.

Same applies to other posters here - just because the posting limits were removed doesn't give you licence to post the same things over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over ...
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