Just pondering whether to kill this turn of the thread with an anecdote... Stuff it!

A few years ago, we went to a wedding in a Muslim majority country. I was having kittens for weeks wondering what would be appropriate to wear. I opted for a full length dress with a lightweight shrug to cover my shoulders and upper arms, and made sure the puppies weren't on display. All the lady guests from Europe wore similar garb, probably because we'd all read the same websites.

The local girls turned up in one shoulder mini dresses and break neck heels, which made us all feel frumpy by comparison.

So you think it will go from less then 5% today, to more then 51%?

And this will happen without any of those 51% adopting any aspect of swiss culture?

And all of those 51% will be as observant as say, Saudi Arabia?

And despite the fact that most of the current 5% have already adopted swiss culture?

And that this will happen without the number of Muslims ever stabilizing or going down?

And that this will happen so quickly, that it will cause civil unrest?

Id better let my Muslim friends know they're letting the side down by not having 15 kids each.

My, what an imagination you do have...

Funnily enough, a few years ago, some friends of mine came to Switzerland for a weekend of partying. The girls were fretting about what to wear, because they believed that Switzerland, being pretty conservative, would frown upon the puppies or legs being on show. I told them it would be fine, but they erred on the side of caution.

They left Switzerland with a significantly different viewpoint then when they came.

Well, looking around the Islamic world and the current state of "integration" in Europe I'm not really comfortable leaving it to chance.

And I don't like the idea of leaving a mess that my grandchildren will have to clean up.

Chances are your grandchildren already have Muslim friends and they dont have any such absurd suppositions that they will be living in a caliphate in 50 years.

Estimates suggest that by 2030, there will be 58 million Muslims in Europe (up from 52 million today), in a population of 727million. Even reputable conservative christian historians like Philip Jenkins, suggest no more then 25% by the year 2100. More reasonable estimates from the Pew Research Center suggest that the number will be around 14%, even if borders were completely relaxed.

Your grand kids wont be alive to see Muslims become a majority. neither will your great grand kids, or your great great grand kids.

Food for thought:

A 2007 Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) report argued that some Muslim population projections may be overestimated, as they assume that all descendants of Muslims will become Muslims even in cases of mixed parenthood. Equally, Darren E. Sherkat questioned in Foreign Affairs whether some of the Muslim growth projections are accurate as they do not take into account the increasing number of non-religious Muslims. Quantitative research is lacking, but he believes the European trend mirrors the American: data from the General Social Survey in the United States show that 32 percent of those raised Muslim no longer embrace Islam in adulthood, and 18 percent hold no religious identification.

They want to circumcise their children? Fine, as long as I'm alright
They want to have forced marriages? Fine, as long as I'm alright
They want to marry family members or young girls? Fine, as long as I'm alright
They want to have the odd honour killing? Fine, as long as I'm alright
They want to engage in bigamy? Fine, as long as I'm alright
They want to live under different rules of law? Fine, as long as I'm alright

Because every single one of the 50-odd million muslims in Europe is a circumcised, marriage-forcing, child-marrying, sibling-killing, multi-wifed sharia nut?

Or is that just the case in LozLand?

I think you're on your own there sweetheart.

Why should that be in any way important to how we treat people here?
Thats the way little children argue

Edited

Do you really think that as the Muslim population grows, perhaps to the point where there are Muslim majority cities in Europe, that they are going to agree with and live by your values ?

That, as a whole, they are going to put your values ahead of their own?

No, but I think if that should happen it would take at least 25 years. And by then their values and my values will have amalgamated into something new, maybe even something better. At least if we manage to avoid ghettos.

Keep getting updates for this thread, yet nobody has been shot, except for some guy in Romford, but I doubt certain people are interested in that as this has become yet another of kk's immigration threads. *yawn*

The initial reporting was somewhat confusing.

I think, before it even came on German news, there was an item on Romanian TV that went viral on youtube before being pulled in which they said it was a Kurd.

Something similar appeared on Turkish channels soon after. Again the Kurds were blamed. Even Erdogan made some remark to this effect.

The German authorities refused to release the identity of the person, but claimed he was a German. Some sources said his name was Jens R, but this wasn't in the official police statement. Police said there was no evidence of link to islamic or other terrorism.

They denied any links to Kurds but admitted there had been a Kurdish demonstartion in town earlier that day.

The Daily Mail claimed there were links to right wing terrorism. It's not clear where that came from.

then some AfD people tried to shift the blame back to immigrants, and a screenshot of the original Romanian news item did the rounds before being pulled. Some claimed the screenshot was fake.

Despite these rather contradictory and vacuous versions of the story, lots of politicians, Church leaders etc in Germany stepped up and said they condemened anybody trying to use this attack for anti islamic purposes (strangely they didn't mention anti-Kurdish purposes).

A lot of people believe that when politicians deny something its because its true. The German media repeated these condemnations without reporting on the previous (probably fake) versions of the story that had been doing the rounds. It thus came across like a massive over-reaction.

In other words, the German media craeted the impression something was being denied that hadn't even been said.

If there's nothing else to it, then its a textbook case of bad handling of PR.

I find it fascinating that Europe has struggled to integrate small percentages of Muslims yet you're confident that as their numbers grow this task will somehow become more achievable and their values will somehow align more with Europe's.

Let's look at one example that you spoke of as "hell no, not in my country":

In this scenario you describe above, you explain that under your values, marriage and relations with a child is wrong and unacceptable.

Given that their holy prophet, whom they hold as an example of the best human being, married and had relations with a child, what do you think happens in this idealistic amalgamated system that you speak of?

Do they put your values above the values of Muhammad? Or do you meet in the middle and settle at say 14 years old? How does it play out?

Lol, I read the news almost every day and I have no idea what are you talking about, amogles. Where this story with the Kurd came from? I think you're confusing people here. Went viral? What went viral? Who made it? Which Romanian TV channel, there are like a gazillion of them. Maybe the Turkish owned one - Kanal D, but they stay away of this stuff (politics), it's mainly entertaining and commercials. Seriously........? I think we can write whatever crosses our mind here, every scenario is plausible. lol

It was on B1.ro

Not sure whether that counts as serious news or not.

I don't understand Romanian but i saw the report subtiled in English on Youtube.

The video has since been deleted.

So you can conclude what ypu want.

If so, a video that appeared on this channel, but made by whom? An amateur? Someone in the crowd filming with his phone, commenting what they hear here and there? Can we have more details, because in the press it didn't appear anything like this. Not that we don't have our fair share of Daily Mail-ism, but still.

The interviewer in the studio was talking to somebody over the phone. A woman, I don't know if she was a journalist or just a person who happened to be on site and able to speak Romanian and so got interviewed. She mostly described what had happened, the confusion, that people were dead, that the police were cordoning the area off. And then at the end the interviewer asked whether they know anything about the guy who drove the van, or his reasons, and she said, yeah, he was a Kurdish guy who is on the police watch list. They didn't discuss it further. It was the end of the clip.

Now I expect in reality, the police wouldn't release a fact like that so early so it was probably hearsay that was spreading on the streets, which might also explain why the clip was pulled so quickly. Neverthless, it is strange that it was pulled rather than some apology or correction being offered.

But it wouold explain why there was such a massive condemnation in the media of people implying there was a middle-eastern link without anybody being reported as having said that. No counter-reaction with reaction.

Just a suggestion for anyone who is concerned about these events from a practical aspect...and it is purely a suggestion...you might like to download Reuters app to your phone. Reuters are the news agency that the travel industry use to alert them to any events such as transport accidents, terrorist related events, natural disasters, etc... Basically, anything that can impact travel security pings up on your phone. I like it because it's a no nonsense alert system, with no speculation or angle, and faster than any other international news agency.

On this particular occasion, I did put Sky news on getting the alert and they were just reporting the police advice to avoid the area. Again, no angle or speculation on this occasion.

Still don't understand how this stuff could get viral anywhere else apart from those 15 minutes fame on Youtube before being pulled out. Or if someone even based their suppositions on that foreign woman's relating from the scene, in an interview for a foreign channel, in a foreign language. It's a weird, complicated story, but it could have a tiny bit of "truth element" in there - the interview. I bet there were videos and comments filmed by some locals too, it's simply impossible not to...why choose to give more credibility to what someone says on an obscure tv channel from another country is beyond imagination. If really so, the media is much shittier than we ever thought.
There were rumours because they were coming from the Germans themselves, not because some video on youtube in a foreign language that probably no German even watched. As if it was hard to make a supposition or connect the dots - Kurdish manifestation on the same day plus attack etc etc
Maybe it was just a spicy element in a news show... How credible if nobody else in the press quoted this interview? Probably your Romanian friends watched that show, but let me tell you it wasn't that impactful since nobody else in the press made the same suppositions. That many people in Europe thought it was an islamic attack without checking the facts first is obvious even in this thread...I don't doubt that Erdogan wanted really badly to be a Kurdish attacker though, or that he made comments exactly like Trump did on "what happens in Sweden"...

Lol, with all sympathy for you and your stories - you deserve the equivalent of a youtube pull out for these anecdotes.