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Old 11.04.2018, 14:56
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Why don't you discuss these issues with historians, sociologists, theologians etc.? I am sure there are many seminars or really good debates on these themes. Just a suggestion, of course. I'm not sure what are you expecting from a public forum. Lots of people share their anxieties here but don't think that's very useful.
I had the impression that was preisely what Kriss Kross was attempting, but that other came in and derailed that discussion and drowned it out, somewhow implying that it's not Ok to discuss stuff like that.

But yeah, such are the joys of the Internet.
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Old 11.04.2018, 15:54
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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It's all about the varying translations that have been made through history, so there's very little that can be accepted as 100% accurate, which is why the scholars use terms like 'may', rather than committing to a specific version and staking their reputation on it.
I think the number 12 and the female gender are pretty defined concepts very difficult to mis-translate don't you ??
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  #2123  
Old 11.04.2018, 16:19
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I think the number 12 and the female gender are pretty defined concepts very difficult to mis-translate don't you ??
Not anymore
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Old 11.04.2018, 16:23
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Nope - the gospels are physical documents - ergo if something is or is not in there it should not be up for debate.

I've had 12 years of religious education followed by over 20 years of philosophical study and never came across any such claim. I'm no longer a Catholic per se btw but according to their doctrines them's some pretty outrageous claims to make i.e. "12 female apostles referenced in gospels".
Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Two additional apostles and one of them a woman.

Now we just have to find eleven more.
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Old 11.04.2018, 16:24
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I think the number 12 and the female gender are pretty defined concepts very difficult to mis-translate don't you ??
That depends.

For many geeks, 12 is twice 7.

And gender is, evidently, fluid.
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  #2126  
Old 11.04.2018, 16:31
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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But there are some values/culture that I think the vast majority do believe in which are at odds with the current values/culture, and I don't see them changing anytime soon (if ever) hence the simplified question.


We could argue about the vast majority thing but i agree with you in general. There are certain points like child marriage, sharia law etc. where I think we have to be adamant as a host and be careful not to loose our identity.

My hypothesis is, that no secondo who grew up here will be in favour of child marriage or the like. Source (a bad one though): I have a lot of secondo kids as students.(Ofc there will be some religious nutters as everywhere, but this will be a small percentage).
Therefore, even if the majority o a city should be muslim, I doubt that a lot will change. At least if we don't have a huge wave of first-generation immigrants and we can avoid ghettoisation as said before.
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Old 11.04.2018, 16:36
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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The vitriol and personal insults that kriss and others receive - just for putting forward their point of view and even from mods makes a mockery of this forum's rules. I don't post very much anymore - maybe just to call out the most absurd of posts - like saying that folks like Loz are the problem rather than actual terrorists and criminals - which was an incredibly abusive post.
The responses he gets are a perfect reflection of his vitriolic posts. He doesn't offer his opinion, he tries to trigger - he even says so himself.
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  #2128  
Old 11.04.2018, 16:51
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Two additional apostles and one of them a woman.

Now we just have to find eleven more.
Mary Magdalen, Joanna, Susanna and Salome. Only 7 more to go
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Old 11.04.2018, 16:56
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Mary Magdalen, Joanna, Susanna and Salome. Only 7 more to go
Milly, Dorcas Gaylen, Ruth Jepson, Martha, Liza, Sarah Kine, Alice Elcott.

(oh wait... wrong film)
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Old 11.04.2018, 17:01
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

...and the apostles singing 'Bless your beautiful hide'? Is that blasphemy?
*swooning over the young Howard Keel*
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Old 11.04.2018, 17:09
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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...listening to the 1990 Rome Three Tenors concert whilst making pasta for dinner last night
Virtual hugs! I love them!!! OK.. there're only two of them now but what a trio. Legendary. Unrepeatable.
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Old 11.04.2018, 17:12
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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We My hypothesis is, that no secondo who grew up here will be in favour of child marriage or the like. Source (a bad one though): I have a lot of secondo kids as students.(Ofc there will be some religious nutters as everywhere, but this will be a small percentage).
Therefore, even if the majority o a city should be muslim, I doubt that a lot will change.
Fair enough. It is a rather contentious subject and you may be right, but I'm not personally convinced.

What do you think about more 'innocent' issues, say like the banning of minarets or the restrictions on halal slaughter? Do you think most of the secondo Muslims would also support such bans?
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Old 11.04.2018, 17:18
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Two additional apostles and one of them a woman.

Now we just have to find eleven more.
Someone says there are as many as 25.

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Mary Magdalen, Joanna, Susanna and Salome. Only 7 more to go
Unlikely. When they leave the tomb they go to inform "the apostles", as opposed to "the other apostles".

However, Maria Magdalena clearly had a special and prominent role: She's present at his crucifixion, she's the only woman named by all four evanglists to enter the tomb containing, as they expect, Jesus' body. And, IIRC, she's the first to learn that Jesus isn't dead (any longer).
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Old 11.04.2018, 17:22
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Mary Magdalen, Joanna, Susanna and Salome. Only 7 more to go
plus Phoebe?
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  #2135  
Old 11.04.2018, 17:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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We could argue about the vast majority thing but i agree with you in general. There are certain points like child marriage, sharia law etc. where I think we have to be adamant as a host and be careful not to loose our identity.

My hypothesis is, that no secondo who grew up here will be in favour of child marriage or the like. Source (a bad one though): I have a lot of secondo kids as students.(Ofc there will be some religious nutters as everywhere, but this will be a small percentage).
Therefore, even if the majority o a city should be muslim, I doubt that a lot will change. At least if we don't have a huge wave of first-generation immigrants and we can avoid ghettoisation as said before.
As was posted earlier there are a lot of child marriages in the US so it is hard to claim this is against Western values?

In its current form in the West, Sharia law is a form of arbitration voluntarily accepted by the parties involved. It does not conflict with or supersede the law of the land.

As we know from the Stormy Daniels case, arbitration is often an alternative to due process
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Old 11.04.2018, 17:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I had the impression that was preisely what Kriss Kross was attempting, but that other came in and derailed that discussion and drowned it out, somewhow implying that it's not Ok to discuss stuff like that.

But yeah, such are the joys of the Internet.
This is a very diverse internet forum so it's natural that this (any) subject makes some people uncomfortable. Please let's debate feminism...for a comparison. I don't agree with provocative posts but neither with even more vitriolic responses (not that what it could make a difference here)...there are ways and there are ways to discuss anything. And....it has been discussed ad nauseam in the EF format. There are also books, academic debates, articles, etc. If I'm really interested in a subject I, for one, prefer to know where some info or opinions come from, which are their sources, reliability etc. On internet....it's complicated. ;-) Of course, even in real life there's bias or agenda, but it's a bit more transparent.
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Old 11.04.2018, 17:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Fair enough. It is a rather contentious subject and you may be right, but I'm not personally convinced.

What do you think about more 'innocent' issues, say like the banning of minarets or the restrictions on halal slaughter? Do you think most of the secondo Muslims would also support such bans?


No I guess they would most certainly not support a ban of minarets, neither did I btw.
I guess they wouldn't ban halal slaughter either. I would but feel very sanctimoniously doing so.




I live two villages next to a minaret, so far id didn't hurt me and if it leads to muslims feeling more welcome and appreciated why not. One thing less in the quiver of extreme Imams.
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Old 11.04.2018, 17:31
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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As was posted earlier there are a lot of child marriages in the US so it is hard to claim this is against Western values?

In its current form in the West, Sharia law is a form of arbitration voluntarily accepted by the parties involved. It does not conflict with or supersede the law of the land.

As we know from the Stormy Daniels case, arbitration is often an alternative to due process


Ok, if you consider the US as a standart for (western) values.... I prefer not to if you don't mind.
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Old 11.04.2018, 17:40
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Ok, if you consider the US as a standart for (western) values.... I prefer not to if you don't mind.
No problem, but if we want to claim we have a uniform set of accepted Western values that immigrants should conform to and then we exclude a large chunk of the West it does rather weaken our case?

Leads to claims of cherry picking, etc.
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Old 11.04.2018, 17:50
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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No problem, but if we want to claim we have a uniform set of accepted Western values that immigrants should conform to and then we exclude a large chunk of the West it does rather weaken our case?

Leads to claims of cherry picking, etc.


Ok true. I give you that. I did the same simplification which I accused krisskross of.


Maybe if I rephrase it to "the set of values lived in the town which is in danger of beeing overtaken by muslims" (no sarcasm intented!)
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