I think the number 12 and the female gender are pretty defined concepts very difficult to mis-translate don't you ??

Not anymore

Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Two additional apostles and one of them a woman.

Now we just have to find eleven more.

That depends.

For many geeks, 12 is twice 7.

And gender is, evidently, fluid.

We could argue about the vast majority thing but i agree with you in general. There are certain points like child marriage, sharia law etc. where I think we have to be adamant as a host and be careful not to loose our identity.

My hypothesis is, that no secondo who grew up here will be in favour of child marriage or the like. Source (a bad one though): I have a lot of secondo kids as students.(Ofc there will be some religious nutters as everywhere, but this will be a small percentage).
Therefore, even if the majority o a city should be muslim, I doubt that a lot will change. At least if we don't have a huge wave of first-generation immigrants and we can avoid ghettoisation as said before.

The responses he gets are a perfect reflection of his vitriolic posts. He doesn't offer his opinion, he tries to trigger - he even says so himself.

Mary Magdalen, Joanna, Susanna and Salome. Only 7 more to go

Milly, Dorcas Gaylen, Ruth Jepson, Martha, Liza, Sarah Kine, Alice Elcott.

(oh wait... wrong film)

...and the apostles singing 'Bless your beautiful hide'? Is that blasphemy?
*swooning over the young Howard Keel*

Virtual hugs! I love them!!! OK.. there're only two of them now but what a trio. Legendary. Unrepeatable.

Fair enough. It is a rather contentious subject and you may be right, but I'm not personally convinced.

What do you think about more 'innocent' issues, say like the banning of minarets or the restrictions on halal slaughter? Do you think most of the secondo Muslims would also support such bans?

Someone says there are as many as 25.

Unlikely. When they leave the tomb they go to inform "the apostles", as opposed to "the other apostles".

However, Maria Magdalena clearly had a special and prominent role: She's present at his crucifixion, she's the only woman named by all four evanglists to enter the tomb containing, as they expect, Jesus' body. And, IIRC, she's the first to learn that Jesus isn't dead (any longer).

plus Phoebe?

As was posted earlier there are a lot of child marriages in the US so it is hard to claim this is against Western values?

In its current form in the West, Sharia law is a form of arbitration voluntarily accepted by the parties involved. It does not conflict with or supersede the law of the land.

As we know from the Stormy Daniels case, arbitration is often an alternative to due process

This is a very diverse internet forum so it's natural that this (any) subject makes some people uncomfortable. Please let's debate feminism...for a comparison. I don't agree with provocative posts but neither with even more vitriolic responses (not that what it could make a difference here)...there are ways and there are ways to discuss anything. And....it has been discussed ad nauseam in the EF format. There are also books, academic debates, articles, etc. If I'm really interested in a subject I, for one, prefer to know where some info or opinions come from, which are their sources, reliability etc. On internet....it's complicated. ;-) Of course, even in real life there's bias or agenda, but it's a bit more transparent.

No I guess they would most certainly not support a ban of minarets, neither did I btw.
I guess they wouldn't ban halal slaughter either. I would but feel very sanctimoniously doing so.




I live two villages next to a minaret, so far id didn't hurt me and if it leads to muslims feeling more welcome and appreciated why not. One thing less in the quiver of extreme Imams.

Ok, if you consider the US as a standart for (western) values.... I prefer not to if you don't mind.

No problem, but if we want to claim we have a uniform set of accepted Western values that immigrants should conform to and then we exclude a large chunk of the West it does rather weaken our case?

Leads to claims of cherry picking, etc.

Ok true. I give you that. I did the same simplification which I accused krisskross of.


Maybe if I rephrase it to "the set of values lived in the town which is in danger of beeing overtaken by muslims" (no sarcasm intented!)

So is there actually a problem with American immigrants in Europe having child brides. Or is this a hypothetic situation?