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Old 11.04.2018, 17:51
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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No problem, but if we want to claim we have a uniform set of accepted Western values that immigrants should conform to and then we exclude a large chunk of the West it does rather weaken our case?

Leads to claims of cherry picking, etc.
So is there actually a problem with American immigrants in Europe having child brides. Or is this a hypothetic situation?
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  #2142  
Old 11.04.2018, 17:51
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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No I guess they would most certainly not support a ban of minarets, neither did I btw.
I guess they wouldn't ban halal slaughter either. I would but feel very sanctimoniously doing so.
But you see what I mean? Whether you agree with their positions or not, as their numbers grow it may well be that they begin to swing public opinion in a rather different way (for better or worse).

I assume you're a schoolteacher, what about the whole drama about Muslims not shaking hands with the opposite sex?

Again, I'm not saying that most of them will want to stop shaking hands with the opposite sex, but do you think that most of them would be for or against legislation which enforces it, like what currently exists?
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  #2143  
Old 11.04.2018, 17:51
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Fair enough. It is a rather contentious subject and you may be right, but I'm not personally convinced.

What do you think about more 'innocent' issues, say like the banning of minarets or the restrictions on halal slaughter? Do you think most of the secondo Muslims would also support such bans?
Well if you want to ban Halal (Dabihah) slaughter then you have to ban Jewish Shechita slaughter as well since they use practically the same method.
Banning things that a quarter of the world's population support tends to create other issues?
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  #2144  
Old 11.04.2018, 18:01
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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This is a very diverse internet forum so it's natural that this (any) subject makes some people uncomfortable. Please let's debate feminism...for a comparison. I don't agree with provocative posts but neither with even more vitriolic responses (not that what it could make a difference here)...there are ways and there are ways to discuss anything. And....it has been discussed ad nauseam in the EF format. There are also books, academic debates, articles, etc. If I'm really interested in a subject I, for one, prefer to know where some info or opinions come from, which are their sources, reliability etc. On internet....it's complicated. ;-) Of course, even in real life there's bias or agenda, but it's a bit more transparent.
Being uncomfortable is one thing. If you want to debate certain topics, you cannot avoid people getting uncomfortable. Some of the people who feel uncomfortable will try to shut down the discussion or drown it in various ways. In the extreme it turns into trolling.

But just because some people don't like a certain discussion, or think you shouldn't be having it, that doesn't prevent you from trying to have it. I agree with you that it is interesting to know where ideas come from and what is behind them. Quite often, it is only when you enter that debate and listen rather than condemn everything before you've understood half of it that you can come closer to understanding those issues.

Yeah, it's the same with feminism, with vegetarianism, with whatever.This is where symmetry comes in. Sometimes it's the very same people who get angry when people troll their topics who don't see what is wrong with troling topics that are important to other people.

It often boils down to, its OK when I do it because I'm right and you're wrong.
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  #2145  
Old 11.04.2018, 18:04
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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So is there actually a problem with American immigrants in Europe having child brides. Or is this a hypothetic situation?
That is against the law in Europe so no problem.

The topic is Muslims in Europe, may I refer you to this handy list? Diversion 5.
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  #2146  
Old 11.04.2018, 18:04
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Well if you want to ban Halal (Dabihah) slaughter then you have to ban Jewish Shechita slaughter as well since they use practically the same method.
Banning things that a quarter of the world's population support tends to create other issues?


It sounds much harsher then I mean it but in the end it comes down to this:


Our Country, our rules. You are welcome to live by them or to leave if you dont manage to adapt. Especially since their Claims are based on religious believes.
Which should have in my opinion zero influence on legislation.
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  #2147  
Old 11.04.2018, 18:05
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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But you see what I mean? Whether you agree with their positions or not, as their numbers grow it may well be that they begin to swing public opinion in a rather different way (for better or worse).
Perhaps people simply don't like answering rhethorical questions. You have already made your opinion, based on pure speculation and questionable predictions. As such you'll most certainly brush aside anything but an affirmative reply.

You don't even take reality into consideration. Otherwise you'd have looked up the situation in European countries that already are Muslim-dominated ages ago. I think there are three of them.
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  #2148  
Old 11.04.2018, 18:11
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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But you see what I mean? Whether you agree with their positions or not, as their numbers grow it may well be that they begin to swing public opinion in a rather different way (for better or worse).


Yes that would happen. But then it would just reflect the change in switzerlands culture and Society


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I assume you're a schoolteacher, what about the whole drama about Muslims not shaking hands with the opposite sex?

Again, I'm not saying that most of them will want to stop shaking hands with the opposite sex, but do you think that most of them would be for or against legislation which enforces it, like what currently exists?

I think if you ask Teenagers of 15-18 years wheter they should be forced to do anything, you will always just get the answer no. No matter the subject.
The legislation which currently enforces it is the law about equality of men and women. I doubt that they are against that.
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  #2149  
Old 11.04.2018, 18:11
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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That is against the law in Europe so no problem.

The topic is Muslims in Europe, may I refer you to this handy list? Diversion 5.
you were the one who brought up the topic of child brides in America, so interesting that now I'm the one who created the diversion i was actually replying to.
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  #2150  
Old 11.04.2018, 18:13
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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It sounds much harsher then I mean it but in the end it comes down to this:


Our Country, our rules. You are welcome to live by them or to leave if you dont manage to adapt. Especially since their Claims are based on religious believes.
Which should have in my opinion zero influence on legislation.
Pragmatically countries want to protect their economies, introducing rules that would generate, in this example, a lot of expensive meat imports hitting the balance of trade is counter productive.

Bans could also lead to the farce of live animals being exported for ritual slaughter and the meat re-imported which increases the animals suffering.
Google the horse meat trade for a sad example.
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Old 11.04.2018, 18:16
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Pragmatically countries want to protect their economies, introducing rules that would generate, in this example, a lot of expensive meat imports hitting the balance of trade is counter productive.

Bans could also lead to the farce of live animals being exported for ritual slaughter and the meat re-imported which increases the animals suffering.
Google the horse meat trade for a sad example.


See and now we are at a point which will be very important in the future.


"How much wealth and economic security am I willing to sacrifice in order to "feel at home" and being proud of my country"
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  #2152  
Old 11.04.2018, 18:21
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I think if you ask Teenagers of 15-18 years wheter they should be forced to do anything, you will always just get the answer no. No matter the subject.
The legislation which currently enforces it is the law about equality of men and women. I doubt that they are against that.
I'm not saying that they are necessarily against gender equality or that they would suddenly choose not to shake hands with the opposite sex.

What I asked was do you think the majority, not just teenagers, would be for or against such legislation that forced them to shake hands with the opposite sex? Even though such legislation actually goes against the teachings of Islam?
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  #2153  
Old 11.04.2018, 18:22
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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See and now we are at a point which will be very important in the future.


"How much wealth and economic security am I willing to sacrifice in order to "feel at home" and being proud of my country"
This exactly.

Different countries and societies have different comfort levels on that. Not everybody thinks that being rich is the most noble objective.

Right now we have a situation that the more progressive countries are trying to impress their way on less progressive countries in a sort of colonialism of valuies.
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Old 11.04.2018, 18:32
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Well if you want to ban Halal (Dabihah) slaughter then you have to ban Jewish Shechita slaughter as well since they use practically the same method.
Banning things that a quarter of the world's population support tends to create other issues?
A clumsy compromise has been reached for 88% of ritual slaughter in the UK. The animals are pre-stunned and then the ritual slaughter takes place, so its now mere tokenism.
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Old 11.04.2018, 18:35
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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That is against the law in Europe so no problem.

The topic is Muslims in Europe, may I refer you to this handy list? Diversion 5.
Hardly since whether it's against the law or not it happens - amongst Muslims in Europe. May I refer you to this handy post.
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Old 11.04.2018, 18:52
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Hardly since whether it's against the law or not it happens - amongst Muslims in Europe. May I refer you to this handy post.
Your post does not inform us whether these marriages actually took place in Europe or the peoplewho were involved arrived in Europe already married.

Anyway you seem to have answered Kriss Kross's question about child marriages in Europe; seems it is already happening and with the blessing of the authorities
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Old 11.04.2018, 19:07
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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See and now we are at a point which will be very important in the future.


"How much wealth and economic security am I willing to sacrifice in order to "feel at home" and being proud of my country"
Other than Switzerland, I never heard of any European country voting in any politician or changing the law who offered less wealth and economic security so that is an academic question; in the sense of not of practical relevance or of only theoretical interest.
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Old 11.04.2018, 19:20
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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This exactly.

Different countries and societies have different comfort levels on that. Not everybody thinks that being rich is the most noble objective.

Right now we have a situation that the more progressive countries are trying to impress their way on less progressive countries in a sort of colonialism of valuies.
Merkels Germany has certainly the lowest level of democracy in the EU since the two most momentous decisions the EU has faced (allowing Greece to remain in the EU and the “migrant crisis”) never saw any election or referendum whatsoever nor any parliamentary vote. So much for “progressive”.... meanwhile Orban was decried and yet by aligning with the will of his people and acting in their interests has increased his democratic mandate.
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  #2159  
Old 11.04.2018, 19:23
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Your post does not inform us whether these marriages actually took place in Europe or the peoplewho were involved arrived in Europe already married.

Anyway you seem to have answered Kriss Kross's question about child marriages in Europe; seems it is already happening and with the blessing of the authorities
Yes glad that you admit that the law is being subverted in the case of SOME Muslim immigrants and worse with the tacit approval of those paid to uphold that law.
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Old 11.04.2018, 21:22
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Yes glad that you admit that the law is being subverted in the case of SOME Muslim immigrants and worse with the tacit approval of those paid to uphold that law.
Nothing to admit, I simply accepted your post verbatim?
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