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Old 11.04.2018, 23:02
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I'm not saying that they are necessarily against gender equality or that they would suddenly choose not to shake hands with the opposite sex.

What I asked was do you think the majority, not just teenagers, would be for or against such legislation that forced them to shake hands with the opposite sex? Even though such legislation actually goes against the teachings of Islam?
Sorry but i cant give you an answer to that wich would even just partly be based on my experience. Most of the muslim people I met seem not to be very religious but I can't see in their head.
So I have to pass on this question
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Old 11.04.2018, 23:16
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Other than Switzerland, I never heard of any European country voting in any politician or changing the law who offered less wealth and economic security so that is an academic question; in the sense of not of practical relevance or of only theoretical interest.
I disagree. I think its a very relevant question in switzerland and maybe outside.

After brexit I read a lot of complaining about short sightet people who cut into their flesh because they blindly followed some populists.
And sure there were a lot of yes voters who fit this description.

But maybe there are others who said, damn yes, maybe we will face a economic crisis but I want this and this for my counry (whatever they were looking for)....
Some people, propably the whole left wing, had nothing better to do than blaming uneducated, frightenet, racist bigotts.... Thats far easier than admitting they weren't doing their homework and forgot about some people.
I'm projecting my view on swiss politics onto britain here, maybe it fits you would know it better than me.
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Old 11.04.2018, 23:28
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I'm not saying that they are necessarily against gender equality or that they would suddenly choose not to shake hands with the opposite sex.

What I asked was do you think the majority, not just teenagers, would be for or against such legislation that forced them to shake hands with the opposite sex? Even though such legislation actually goes against the teachings of Islam?
It is not clear that shaking hands goes against the teachings of Islam.
There’s nothing in the Holy Quran mentioning not to shake hands.

Muslims also rely on Hadiths; a collection of traditions containing sayings of the prophet Muhammad, to guide them.
There is certainly one Hadith which mentions not to shake hands with women but many scholars claim this is not an authentic Hadith; the difficulty is to prove it was, or was not, handed down without any alterations to the text over one and a half millenia despite being rewritten many times.

So some Muslims believe shaking hands goes against the teachings of Islam and others do not.

One key point is it is prohibited to shake hands with a woman if there is fear of provoking sexual desire or enjoyment on the part of either one of them or if there is fear of temptation.
Clearly this prohibition should not apply to school children and their teachers.

This was just a quick overview of a complex subject.
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Old 11.04.2018, 23:36
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Thank you.
We once had a very good input lecture by Jasmin el Sonbati

https://www.exlibris.ch/de/buecher-b.../9783729609402

during a school conference. She covered this topic, too and came to the same conclusion as you did. "Clearly this prohibition should not apply to school children and their teachers." She went even a bit further but I don't want to cite her incorrectly.
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Old 12.04.2018, 00:56
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Yupp, and personal attacks are not tolerated. Pointing out fallacies in individuals' posts is not the same thing as attacking the individuals themselves.
Oh yes they are, they are not tolerated only when it concerns people you approve of. EF is very cliquey and this is obvious from the moon..But I'm trying to be realistic and I say I wouldn't like to moderate any forum, least of all this one, so I can understand the mods have their likes and dislikes, subjects they are ultra-sensitive to and personally involved, and subjects they are indifferent to..You also offer opinions not only "moderation" so it can be a conflict of interest sometimes. Let's just drop this parade with objectivity, fairness etc. At least not at all times and not for everyone. :-) But in general, I think most people appreciate your work.

Other than that, glad that the thread took a nicer turn. Maybe there is hope, after all. Maybe people can communicate with each other..

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Old 12.04.2018, 01:24
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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That depends.

For many geeks, 12 is twice 7.

And gender is, evidently, fluid.
I wonder how real the "evidence" is. Looks like not just povs but also legislature drags its feet with acknowledging some trends.

If that was sarcastic, given the ovations some trends do get here and posturing, I tend to take your opinions on gender fluidity sincerely.

I wonder if single mom-dads have higher chance for fitting the fluid gender trends...since they gotta fill in 2 roles. Somehow I don't think so. Maybe legislature should respond to the double roles shifts, when we finally make some noise about it. Meh.

How does gender fluitity pan out for Muslims and other faiths?
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Old 12.04.2018, 01:44
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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But I'm trying to be realistic and I say I wouldn't like to moderate any forum, least of all this one, so I can understand the mods have their likes and dislikes, subjects they are ultra-sensitive to and personally involved, and subjects they are indifferent to..You also offer opinions not only "moderation" so it can be a conflict of interest sometimes. Let's just drop this parade with objectivity, fairness etc. At least not at all times and not for everyone. :-) But in general, I think most people appreciate your work.
Two of the most thankless jobs in the World..being a trade union rep and being a mod on a forum. I worked on a political forum, set up in the US in 2002, and was a mod for 8yrs. We had 8 mods, 12 admins and well over 100k members, plus the Iraq War and GWB to contend with. It was like herding cats at the best of times. We had death threats, daily hacking attempts, and the worst arguments were behind the scenes (usually over banning certain members), but 7yrs later those mods are still some of my closest friends, and the closest of the lot is a guy who I suspended and banned about 14 times in 3yrs (and he does like to remind me of that when we're on a night out).

At the end of the day, this is all just words on a web page, and if the owner ever pulls the plug, it will be lost forever.
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Old 12.04.2018, 08:54
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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It is not clear that shaking hands goes against the teachings of Islam.
There’s nothing in the Holy Quran mentioning not to shake hands.

So some Muslims believe shaking hands goes against the teachings of Islam and others do not.
Sure that's true, but I think you would find that the majority of Islamic scholars are of the belief that touching members of the opposite sex does go again Islam.

And I'm guessing the reason you didn't include any links for your assertion is because they most likely will confirm what I wrote above.

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Thank you.
We once had a very good input lecture by Jasmin el Sonbati

https://www.exlibris.ch/de/buecher-b.../9783729609402

during a school conference. She covered this topic, too and came to the same conclusion as you did. "Clearly this prohibition should not apply to school children and their teachers." She went even a bit further but I don't want to cite her incorrectly.
She seems to have good intentions but I read an interesting article about her and her work which details just how little support she has from the wider community.

Source
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Old 12.04.2018, 11:10
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Sure that's true, but I think you would find that the majority of Islamic scholars are of the belief that touching members of the opposite sex does go again Islam.

And I'm guessing the reason you didn't include any links for your assertion is because they most likely will confirm what I wrote above.

She seems to have good intentions but I read an interesting article about her and her work which details just how little support she has from the wider community.

Source
A link? Sure, here.

Incidentally some Orthodox Jews have the same belief about not shaking hands which, like ritual slaughter, is one of many common beliefs with Islam.
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Old 12.04.2018, 11:10
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Other than Switzerland, I never heard of any European country voting in any politician or changing the law who offered less wealth and economic security so that is an academic question; in the sense of not of practical relevance or of only theoretical interest.
I disagree.

There are, both on the left and the right of the political spectrum people who say that economic growth should not be an end to itself. They say they would happily live with less growth if instead they could have better protection of the environment, worker's rights, culture and traditions or quite a lot of other things (each with their own emphasis or pet topic).

Quite a number of such parties have been in power or are maybe still in power, so it is difficult to argue that their ideologies have not influenced actual legislation.
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Old 12.04.2018, 11:41
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Incidentally some Orthodox Jews have the same belief about not shaking hands which, like ritual slaughter, is one of many common beliefs with Islam.
Not just them, I choose to live my life according to Routledge’s Manual of Etiquette (1899)

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Introductions
To introduce persons who are mutually unknown is to undertake a serious responsibility, and to certify to each the respectability of the other. Never undertake this responsibility without in the first place asking yourself whether the persons are likely to be agreeable to each other; nor, in the second place, without ascertaining whether it will be acceptable to both parties to become acquainted.

Always introduce the gentleman to the lady never the lady to the gentleman. The chivalry of etiquette assumes that the lady is invariably the superior in right of her sex, and that the gentleman is honoured in the introduction. This rule is to be observed even when the social rank of the gentleman is higher than that of the lady.

Tactile acknowledgements
When you are introduced to a lady, never offer your hand.
When introduced, persons limit their recognition of each other to a bow. On the Continent, ladies never shake hands with gentlemen unless under circumstances of great intimacy.
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Old 12.04.2018, 12:05
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Not just them, I choose to live my life according to Routledge’s Manual of Etiquette (1899)
There is no need for all that fuss.. you simply need to acquire a top hat like JagWaugh's, so you can tip it to the ladies and move along.
Bowing will never do, not good for one's back.. and don't forget the obligatory sliver-topped walking stick to beat the peasants away.

(Oopsie, nearly wrote pheasants there.. )
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Old 12.04.2018, 12:13
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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A link? Sure, here.
As I said though, you will find the majority of Islamic scholars will are against it:

Source

"I should be very clear that the majority of scholars would say that there should be no physical contact between men and women"

Source

Imam Elahi adds that most Islamic scholars will agree that it is forbidden for members of the opposite sex to touch each other physically unless they are married or related.
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Old 12.04.2018, 12:15
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Sorry but i cant give you an answer to that wich would even just partly be based on my experience. Most of the muslim people I met seem not to be very religious but I can't see in their head.
So I have to pass on this question
I agree that we cannot correctly guess what all people would think about an issue, it's impossible.

That being said, I can't really see the logic or reasoning behind the idea that even semi-pious Muslims who actually believe in Islam would be in favour of any restrictions that go against their faith. Why would they?
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Old 12.04.2018, 12:16
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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There is no need for all that fuss.. you simply need to acquire a top hat like JagWaugh's, so you can tip it to the ladies and move along.
Bowing will never do, not good for one's back.. and don't forget the obligatory sliver-topped walking stick to beat the peasants away.

(Oopsie, nearly wrote pheasants there.. )
Jacob Rees Mogg, is that you?
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Old 12.04.2018, 12:46
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Jacob Rees Mogg, is that you?
Ah, now.. no.

See here: hat is untippable.

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Old 12.04.2018, 14:41
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Oh yes they are, they are not tolerated only when it concerns people you approve of. EF is very cliquey and this is obvious from the moon..But I'm trying to be realistic and I say I wouldn't like to moderate any forum, least of all this one, so I can understand the mods have their likes and dislikes, subjects they are ultra-sensitive to and personally involved, and subjects they are indifferent to..You also offer opinions not only "moderation" so it can be a conflict of interest sometimes. Let's just drop this parade with objectivity, fairness etc. At least not at all times and not for everyone. :-) But in general, I think most people appreciate your work.

Other than that, glad that the thread took a nicer turn. Maybe there is hope, after all. Maybe people can communicate with each other..
Everything is relative.

I'm active on another forum where one of the mods is always making fun of people, calling them names, throwing snarky remarks around and even deleting posts they disagree with without stating any reason. But woe betide any other user who only slightly misbehaves.
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Old 12.04.2018, 15:25
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Merkels Germany has certainly the lowest level of democracy in the EU since the two most momentous decisions the EU has faced (allowing Greece to remain in the EU and the “migrant crisis”)
Kindly demonstrate how Greece, or any other member for that matter, could have been thrown out of the EU.
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Old 12.04.2018, 15:35
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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What I asked was do you think the majority, not just teenagers, would be for or against such legislation that forced them to shake hands with the opposite sex? Even though such legislation actually goes against the teachings of Islam?
Why don't you ask how many westerners would be against such legislation?

Do you usually shake hands with everybody when you enter the room? If you don't, why should that be mandatory for someone else?

AFAIK such a law doesn't exist in Europe, definitely not in CH/DE/AT. In what way would the introduction of such a un-European law promote European values?
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Old 12.04.2018, 15:38
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I agree that we cannot correctly guess what all people would think about an issue, it's impossible.

That being said, I can't really see the logic or reasoning behind the idea that even semi-pious Muslims who actually believe in Islam would be in favour of any restrictions that go against their faith. Why would they?
By the same logic, no even semi-pious Catholics use artificial birth control.

Oh hold on....
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