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  #2601  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:06
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I'd say c) is closest to the truth. The consensus of Muslims I know who don't drink (I'd say purely anecdotally of people I know, it's maybe 50 / 50 between those that do and don't) is that they believe it is improper to be intoxicated, as you are not properly able to appreciate Allah's work and give praise to him if you aren't in your right mind - it is disrespectful to him. So, of course, it's not just alcohol, but anything that leads to intoxication. Pain meds seem to be OK though.
But if it is about the intoxication, this would not explain why some Muslims think even non alcoholic beer is forbidden.

https://archive.islamonline.net/?p=1255
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  #2602  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:08
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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On the contrary. I have spoken to several Muslims who all claimed to be experts on Islam but who said that 95% of other Muslims claiming to be experts had either misunderstood or misinterpreted something.

So maybe the definition of a typical Musilm is somebody who isn't quite a perfect Muslim.


There's an estimated 43,000 denominations of Christianity. 43,000 groups of people who have a different interpretation of the same faith. In view of that, what on Earth would make you think that there's such a thing as a 'typical Muslim'?

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The Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary estimated 34,000 denominations in 2000, rising to an estimated 43,000 in 2012. These numbers have exploded from 1,600 in the year 1900.
https://theway21stcentury.wordpress....ons-worldwide/
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  #2603  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:10
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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There's an estimated 43,000 denominations of Christianity. 43,000 groups of people who have a different interpretation of the same faith. In view of that, what on Earth would make you think that there's such a thing as a 'typical Muslim'?

https://theway21stcentury.wordpress....ons-worldwide/
I love it when someone is so eager to make their own point that they completely miss the point of the post to which they're responding.
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  #2604  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:11
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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There's an estimated 43,000 denominations of Christianity. 43,000 groups of people who have a different interpretation of the same faith. In view of that, what on Earth would make you think that there's such a thing as a 'typical Muslim'?
Exactly.

And by similar argument, there is no single authority on Islam. So whoever you invite on your TV show or interview or wheatever, is sure to be met with some disapproval.

So ultimately any statement that starts with "Muslims believe that .." or "Islam teaches that ..." is going to be a heap of baloney if it's not something so extremely generalist and hand sweeping that we don't know it already.
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  #2605  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:13
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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So, of course, it's not just alcohol, but anything that leads to intoxication. Pain meds seem to be OK though.
I'm with you on that, plus some of my Muslim friends won't drink tea or coffee because of their faith. Try squaring that with the Muslim countries who pride themselves on their coffee.
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Old 30.07.2018, 14:15
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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But if it is about the intoxication, this would not explain why some Muslims think even non alcoholic beer is forbidden.

https://archive.islamonline.net/?p=1255
As with Christianity, Judaism, etc, different people interpret their scriptures slightly differently.

Some people believe it is OK to drink if they don't pray whilst intoxicated, some think it is totally fine to have a drink and some think that even consuming trifle with a bit of sherry in will send you straight to hell (most alco free beer still has 0.1-0.5% alcohol in it - such a low amount that drinking enough to get you drunk would kill you first).

Basically, you can't group people all together, even (or maybe especially!) if they are the same religion. If people of the same religion were a homogenous group, Glasgow would be safe to walk through on Saturdays.
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  #2607  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:16
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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So ultimately any statement that starts with "Muslims believe that .." or "Islam teaches that ..." is going to be a heap of baloney if it's not something so extremely generalist and hand sweeping that we don't know it already.
Plus any article of tv interview that talks about 'in the Muslim community'.
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  #2608  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:18
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Plus any article of tv interview that talks about 'in the Muslim community'.
Or, by that logic, anyone who says "Muslims need to police themselves".
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  #2609  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:22
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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There's an estimated 43,000 denominations of Christianity. 43,000 groups of people who have a different interpretation of the same faith. In view of that, what on Earth would make you think that there's such a thing as a 'typical Muslim'?

https://theway21stcentury.wordpress....ons-worldwide/
I'm more amazed at the people's ability to ask so many personal questions. I know or I assume which religion people I know (to a certain degree) have, but wouldn't even cross my mind to ask them how religious they are or what's their intake on religion. I usually want to discuss about other things with them.

Anyways, discussing with different people of a certain religion doesn't make anyone an expert on a particular group, just saying.
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  #2610  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:29
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Seeing, according to Muslims, it was a Muslim who discovered Alcohol

Either

a) The Prophet had foreseen that discovery and banned the substance before it was even known (in which case, how do we know this was the substance he was referring to)
b) The ban was posthumously inserted after the discovery (in which case, on whose authority?)
c) The ban on alcohol is not quite as specific as is often implied, and is more a hand sweeping general damnation of all mood altering susbstances, which raises the question of whether Muslims can use pain killers, methadone and such.
I assume you mean distillation since wine has been made for over 7,000 years?

c. is the usual interpretation. Usually they say that medically prescribed medicines are OK but like most religions this an interpretation that has less than solid grounds.

This is a case where Christians and Jews have a different view,
Proverbs 31:6 "Give strong drink to him who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress, let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more”
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  #2611  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:30
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I'm more amazed at the people's ability to ask so many personal questions. I know or I assume which religion people I know (to a certain degree) have, but wouldn't even cross my mind to ask them how religious they are or what's their intake on religion. I usually want to discuss about other things with them.

Anyways, discussing with different people of a certain religion doesn't make anyone an expert on a particular group, just saying.
A few years ago, I was quite curious about Islam and actually went through a phase of considering conversion. My openness to the religion must have been apparent, because Muslims of all kinds of persuasions couldn't wait to share their interpretations of the religion with me.

Some of what I heard was beautiful and wise. Some of it - to my English secular ears - was appalling. One Sufi with whom I shared a bottle of Chivas Regal had a more liberal theology than the agnostic to whom he was talking.

Combined with the extensive reading I did at the time, I learnt a lot. None of it, in the end, was actually any use to me.

So it goes.
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  #2612  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:34
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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On the contrary. I have spoken to several Muslims who all claimed to be experts on Islam but who said that 95% of other Muslims claiming to be experts had either misunderstood or misinterpreted something.

So maybe the definition of a typical Musilm is somebody who isn't quite a perfect Muslim.
It is a tribal thing like "the people in the next village" (or in Switzerland the next valley) believe strange things.
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  #2613  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:39
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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If you personally knew any Muslims yourself, Marton, you'd know that quite a few of them often have strange and false ideas about Islam themselves...
How wide is your definition of "personally knew"; I am thinking about EF colleagues who are Muslim?
And why the past tense?
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  #2614  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:43
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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How wide is your definition of "personally knew"; I am thinking about EF colleagues who are Muslim?
And why the past tense?
I'd answer your questions if I understood WTF you were talking about.
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Old 30.07.2018, 14:47
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I'm more amazed at the people's ability to ask so many personal questions.
When you've known people for a long time, the details tend to eventually come out, and I've learned not to presume.

Case in point, it wasn't until my cousin got engaged, and everyone began asking about wedding plans, that we found out her (now) husband is Jewish. It was just never part of the conversation.
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Old 30.07.2018, 14:50
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You know we already discussed about Imam Tawhidi here.
He claims a Master degree from Al-Mustafa International University
But Al-Mustafa International University in Iran says Imam Tawhidi has no bachelor's degree from their university, let alone a master's.

He started at the university, but dropped out.

The point was that "People who "believe" they know something about Islam – as opposed to personally knowing a Muslim - often have strange and false ideas about Islam"

So once again please post any sort of comment that might possibly establish the relevance or context of your post in this thread.
TELL ME WHO FROM THOSE VIDEOS DO NOT KNOW ISLAM VERY WELL?

Seriously, why comment? With all due respect, you are a stubborn that won't accept facts.
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  #2617  
Old 30.07.2018, 14:59
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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TELL ME WHO FROM THOSE VIDEOS DO NOT KNOW ISLAM VERY WELL?

Seriously, why comment? With all due respect, you are a stubborn that won't accept facts.
Tell me who in these videos do you know personally?

The whole point of this subtopic is people change their views on Islam when they personally know a Muslim.
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  #2618  
Old 30.07.2018, 15:24
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Tell me who in these videos do you know personally?

The whole point of this subtopic is people change their views on Islam when they personally know a Muslim.
More like they change their opinions about Muslims, not on Islam. There is a subtle nuance here. I think it is the same about any group, or at least it should be. I think a person is defined by so many variables, a religion that encompasses so many cultures cannot, really cannot, totally define someone. I don't even understand why people choose to identify themselves only with a religion.
But are all the people of Islamic faith defining themselves only by that? Or first of all things about them? I don't think so. An Albanian is first of all an Albanian (even European, in some of the more aspiring or "progressive" minds), not a Muslim. I'm giving this example because I happen to know more about them.

I can see the good intentions, but wonder if, were I be in different shoes, wouldn't that bother me. I never agreed with this type of sympathy.
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  #2619  
Old 30.07.2018, 15:59
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I assume you mean distillation since wine has been made for over 7,000 years?
Without distillation you couldn't isolate the substance.

So whereas previously people may have been aware that there's probbaly something in here that makes you tipsy, it was only distillation that turned that into science.
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  #2620  
Old 30.07.2018, 16:11
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Without distillation you couldn't isolate the substance.
Actually, you can:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applejack_(drink)

Tom
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