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  #2781  
Old 05.08.2018, 19:49
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Stagnant discussions, gm?

Allowing opposing views to be heard is not stagnant. Open any sanitized discussions on the internet once....what can one learn there? How can you challenge people's opinions if you don't let them speak? Some people will always consider opposing views as hostile. It is a shame, indeed.

All I care about as a member is plurality. All I care about as a mod is decency and civility.
But that's the thing, that no-one is really challenging anyone else's opinion. Everyone is looking to advance and legitimise their own views. I think the classics were right and people don't change.

As far as I noticed this forum started to be more....let's say equitable in terms of controversial opinions being expressed here, especially political ones. It's funny, a couple of years ago it was so predictable, I knew exactly which posts are going to be largely approved, which ones just tolerated, which ones strongly disapproved. And I don't think the reasons behind this forum dynamics were always ingenuous, or always fair.

Sanitising...I don't think this is the word I prefer. Some self-restraint and humbleness maybe, this was exactly what the forum lacked in my opinion when I took it a bit more seriously than I do now, and it currently lacks too. I don't want pc... maybe if people could return to classic values and stop behaving "nicely" or "not so nicely" according to some fashion in politics and headlines in the papers? I feel like they're constantly taught how to think these days - through media, political parties. I don't believe this is progress. Good quality info re. impacts of immigration, cultural differences etc would be welcomed as far as I'm concerned, if that's all this thread is about in the end. But this stuff has no place on internet forums because they're usually too boring. Fast links and insufficiently reviewed info, internet is full of it. And it's abundant even here.

I don't like what left wing is all about these days, but neither the right wing. It's too polarised.

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  #2782  
Old 06.08.2018, 12:08
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Right, so you've confirmed your racism. You've just labelled the entire, diverse continent of Africa, and by implication, all who live there, as barbaric. It must be easy to distinguish these barbaric people from the sophisticated, refined people of Europe, mustn't it; those barbaric Africans are the black ones, right? So much more barbaric than the genocidal Serbs, for example, or of course the genocidal Germans of the 1930s–40s.

Have you ever been to Africa? Do you understand the heterogeneity and diversity of people in that huge continent? Do you have any comprehension of the ancient customs and traditions that instill family values, respect, all those "barbaric" concepts, in the millions of communities across Africa?

What makes you so "less barbaric"?
Generalisations are a good thing. Without them no one would ever get to the point, anecdotes would be never ending, jokes wouldn't work and comedy would suffer. Discussion would be boring without generalisatoins and if everyone had to be precise all of the time (a seemingly growing expectation on here it seems).

Even though most generalisations are nonsense, there is more often than not an element of truth to them. Kriss Kross made a tongue in cheek remark and then clarified it with a reasonable response for which you branded him a racist.

Generally speaking, Africa is far more barbaric than Europe, that's to say the entire heterogeneity and diversity of people in that huge continent is more barbaric than Europe. The evidence is there: Mass sexual assault in Egypt, Lynchings in Mozambique, Widespread prevalence of FGM, Genocide in Rwanda, Mass amputations in Sierra Leone, some of the world's highest rates of violent crime in South Africa, land expropriation in Zimbabwe, widespread abuses of democracy. I could go on, so I will: Child sacrifice in Uganda, widespread practice of witchcraft in Sub Saharan Africa, the Osu caste system, Famine in Ethiopia, Ethnic cleansing in South Sudan, Kidnappings in Nigeria, the spread of Ebola through the practice of eating bush meat and handling of dead corpses, Beheadings in Libya, the widespread prevalence of slavery...

This list goes on and on and on. To label someone as racist for pointing this out is not only lazy, but thoroughly ignorant. That your fellow mod banned him in part for "racist" postings shows a lack judgement for which they should probably have a word with themselves.
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  #2783  
Old 06.08.2018, 12:22
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Generalisations are a good thing. Without them no one would ever get to the point, anecdotes would be never ending, jokes wouldn't work and comedy would suffer. Discussion would be boring without generalisatoins and if everyone had to be precise all of the time (a seemingly growing expectation on here it seems).

Even though most generalisations are nonsense, there is more often than not an element of truth to them. Kriss Kross made a tongue in cheek remark and then clarified it with a reasonable response for which you branded him a racist.

Generally speaking, Africa is far more barbaric than Europe, that's to say the entire heterogeneity and diversity of people in that huge continent is more barbaric than Europe. The evidence is there: Mass sexual assault in Egypt, Lynchings in Mozambique, Widespread prevalence of FGM, Genocide in Rwanda, Mass amputations in Sierra Leone, some of the world's highest rates of violent crime in South Africa, land expropriation in Zimbabwe, widespread abuses of democracy. I could go on, so I will: Child sacrifice in Uganda, widespread practice of witchcraft in Sub Saharan Africa, the Osu caste system, Famine in Ethiopia, Ethnic cleansing in South Sudan, Kidnappings in Nigeria, the spread of Ebola through the practice of eating bush meat and handling of dead corpses, Beheadings in Libya, the widespread prevalence of slavery...

This list goes on and on and on. To label someone as racist for pointing this out is not only lazy, but thoroughly ignorant. That your fellow mod banned him in part for "racist" postings shows a lack judgement for which they should probably have a word with themselves.
The modship on the forum has become objectively unbalanced - the following was deemed a "personal attack" and therefore deleted.

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Of course not - maybe if you read the link you might have understood but of course no - not you.
and

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I don't you fool - read the post again. Did you notice the bit about white drink driving rates or any of the other facts that didn't hurt your delicate sensibilities ?
Meanwhile the likes of this are allowed to stand :

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Are you back on that old chestnut. What problem are you talking about? Cultural diversity? Ethnic minorities? Refugees? Islam? Sorry mr Bigot you are mixing a lot of different issues together into one bigoted rant.
How is that not a personal attack ??
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  #2784  
Old 06.08.2018, 12:59
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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The modship on the forum has become objectively unbalanced - the following was deemed a "personal attack" and therefore deleted.

and



Meanwhile the likes of this are allowed to stand :



How is that not a personal attack ??
There is so much more I could call you, but bigot seems to be about right. Tbh if I was moderating the forum I would have banned you as you seem to want to propogate hate towards certain segments of society. Itnot by intelligent debate but through a constant stream of skewed data sets and alt-right info graphics and “new reports”, while you may argue that you are presenting the truth, your sources are usually highly biased. Every time a “refugee or immigrant” commits a crime in Europe you use it as evidence to back your claims, when in relation to actual crime rates those offenders that are “immigrants” remain relatively small. Just saying.
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  #2785  
Old 06.08.2018, 13:15
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Generalisations are a good thing. Without them no one would ever get to the point, anecdotes would be never ending, jokes wouldn't work and comedy would suffer. Discussion would be boring without generalisatoins and if everyone had to be precise all of the time (a seemingly growing expectation on here it seems).

Even though most generalisations are nonsense, there is more often than not an element of truth to them. Kriss Kross made a tongue in cheek remark and then clarified it with a reasonable response for which you branded him a racist.

Generally speaking, Africa is far more barbaric than Europe, that's to say the entire heterogeneity and diversity of people in that huge continent is more barbaric than Europe. The evidence is there: Mass sexual assault in Egypt, Lynchings in Mozambique, Widespread prevalence of FGM, Genocide in Rwanda, Mass amputations in Sierra Leone, some of the world's highest rates of violent crime in South Africa, land expropriation in Zimbabwe, widespread abuses of democracy. I could go on, so I will: Child sacrifice in Uganda, widespread practice of witchcraft in Sub Saharan Africa, the Osu caste system, Famine in Ethiopia, Ethnic cleansing in South Sudan, Kidnappings in Nigeria, the spread of Ebola through the practice of eating bush meat and handling of dead corpses, Beheadings in Libya, the widespread prevalence of slavery...

This list goes on and on and on. To label someone as racist for pointing this out is not only lazy, but thoroughly ignorant. That your fellow mod banned him in part for "racist" postings shows a lack judgement for which they should probably have a word with themselves.
Er no. Sorry to tell you that generalisation is not always acceptable. It’s how it’s presented, if it’s negatively representative of a minority or denigrating them for others amusement that’s wrong. That’s not to say cultural stereotyping is always bad. But it’s how it’s used.

I feel that this topic has also been covered before and I quite get your anti-PC stance, I find the sanitized PC world can also be OTT, but in the end why do you feel it’s OK to offend somebody based on their culture or racial profile?
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  #2786  
Old 06.08.2018, 13:34
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

I don't see the issue here, apart from people getting a little upset that their tails are being tweaked.

Everyone is free to generalise to their heart's content, go for it. Other people are free to call you on it, if it appears to be racist or bigoted. Don't complain, suck it up, that's the deal we have with our facsimile of free speech on here.
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  #2787  
Old 06.08.2018, 14:23
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I don't see the issue here, apart from people getting a little upset that their tails are being tweaked.

Everyone is free to generalise to their heart's content, go for it. Other people are free to call you on it, if it appears to be racist or bigoted. Don't complain, suck it up, that's the deal we have with our facsimile of free speech on here.
100% agreed. I'm not threatened by people posting views I disagree with. When free speech starts getting censored because people don't agree with those views, that's when things start to get frightening.

The banter here is no worse than you see on TV political talk shows or whatever. Sometimes it rises above, and some intelligent debate happens, and sometimes it sinks below into mud-slinging. If you can't take the heat, don't enter the kitchen ...well, of course some personal attacks limits and forum rules withstanding....
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  #2788  
Old 06.08.2018, 14:23
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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There is so much more I could call you, but bigot seems to be about right.
And you have - repeatedly - but all of those insults were personal attacks - regardless as to whether or not you believe the veracity of those claims. Either personal attacks are or are not against the forum rules.

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Tbh if I was moderating the forum I would have banned you as you seem to want to propogate hate towards certain segments of society. Itnot by intelligent debate but through a constant stream of skewed data sets and alt-right info graphics and “new reports”, while you may argue that you are presenting the truth, your sources are usually highly biased.
Thomas Sowell and governmental authorities are biased? Ok then.

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Every time a “refugee or immigrant” commits a crime in Europe you use it as evidence to back your claims, when in relation to actual crime rates those offenders that are “immigrants” remain relatively small. Just saying.
Completely wrong on all counts

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The crime rate among resident foreigners ("immigrant criminality") is significantly higher (by a factor 3.7 counting convictions under criminal law in 2003).[13] In 1997, there were for the first time more foreigners than Swiss among the convicts under criminal law (out of a fraction of 20.6% of the total population at the time). In 1999, the Federal Department of Justice and Police ordered a study regarding delinquency and nationality (Arbeitsgruppe "Ausländerkriminalität"), which in its final report (2001) found that a conviction rate under criminal law about 12 times higher among asylum seekers (4%), while the conviction rate among other resident foreigners was about twice as high (0.6%) compared to Swiss citizens (0.3%).[14]
It seems that truth is racist on here.
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  #2789  
Old 06.08.2018, 14:26
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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And you have - repeatedly - but all of those insults were personal attacks - regardless as to whether or not you believe the veracity of those claims. Either personal attacks are or are not against the forum rules.
Fine line, innit? If you wrote something bigoted and he called you a bigot, it's probably just factual reporting and I'm sure you wouldn't object to being called that.
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  #2790  
Old 06.08.2018, 14:38
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Fine line, innit? If you wrote something bigoted and he called you a bigot, it's probably just factual reporting and I'm sure you wouldn't object to being called that.
It's not a fine line at all - he also did not call me a bigot in the instance quoted above. It is also a pejorative term and therefore by definition is a personal attack.
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  #2791  
Old 06.08.2018, 14:53
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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How is that not a personal attack ??
It is, quite clearly. Use the Report button and it will be removed. There are no double standards here, but we're not superhuman so rely on members bringing such things to our attention, rather than just using them to justify their own aggressive postings.
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  #2792  
Old 06.08.2018, 15:01
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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The crime rate among resident foreigners ("immigrant criminality") is significantly higher (by a factor 3.7 counting convictions under criminal law in 2003).[13] In 1997, there were for the first time more foreigners than Swiss among the convicts under criminal law (out of a fraction of 20.6% of the total population at the time).
In 1999, the Federal Department of Justice and Police ordered a study regarding delinquency and nationality (Arbeitsgruppe "Ausländerkriminalität"), which in its final report (2001) found that a conviction rate under criminal law about 12 times higher among asylum seekers (4%), while the conviction rate among other resident foreigners was about twice as high (0.6%) compared to Swiss citizens (0.3%).[14]
[/URL]

It seems that truth is racist on here.
You know that these misleading statistics have often been discussed here?

There are more foreigners in prison because it is the practice here not to grant bail to accused foreigners awaiting trial whereas Swiss citizens can wait at home..

The conviction rate for foreigners is higher because the police usually let off first offences by Swiss citizens with a warning. They see this as crime prevention which is their main task.

Anyway these numbers are 20 years old, there are numbers available for last year
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  #2793  
Old 06.08.2018, 15:17
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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It's not a fine line at all - he also did not call me a bigot in the instance quoted above. It is also a pejorative term and therefore by definition is a personal attack.
Plenty of people would use the term leftist in a pejorative manner on here too. I suspect you wouldn't complain at that term being used? A bigot is just someone being intolerant generally or intolerant of other people's views - if you are doing that (not judging here) then it isn't pejorative, is it? If you are doing it, it sounds like you are being a bit snowflakey complaining about it.
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Old 06.08.2018, 15:18
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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You know that these misleading statistics have often been discussed here?

There are more foreigners in prison because it is the practice here not to grant bail to accused foreigners awaiting trial whereas Swiss citizens can wait at home..

The conviction rate for foreigners is higher because the police usually let off first offences by Swiss citizens with a warning. They see this as crime prevention which is their main task.

Anyway these numbers are 20 years old, there are numbers available for last year
I suspect local people have access to better defence representation and can also prepare themselves better, given that all documentation is in their mother tongue.

Imagine the state we'd be in, if we had to rely on the eejits on here to give us legal advice, and we are mainly educated people with a decent level of integration and local language skills!
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Old 06.08.2018, 15:24
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

I suggest you Google Voltaire...

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There is so much more I could call you, but bigot seems to be about right. Tbh if I was moderating the forum I would have banned you as you seem to want to propogate hate towards certain segments of society. Itnot by intelligent debate but through a constant stream of skewed data sets and alt-right info graphics and “new reports”, while you may argue that you are presenting the truth, your sources are usually highly biased. Every time a “refugee or immigrant” commits a crime in Europe you use it as evidence to back your claims, when in relation to actual crime rates those offenders that are “immigrants” remain relatively small. Just saying.
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Old 06.08.2018, 15:27
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

I think many EFers would also wear the term "Leftist" as a badge of honor. I don't think you can say the same for the term bigot or the more loaded term racist.

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Plenty of people would use the term leftist in a pejorative manner on here too. I suspect you wouldn't complain at that term being used? A bigot is just someone being intolerant generally or intolerant of other people's views - if you are doing that (not judging here) then it isn't pejorative, is it? If you are doing it, it sounds like you are being a bit snowflakey complaining about it.
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Old 06.08.2018, 15:37
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I think many EFers would also wear the term "Leftist" as a badge of honor. I don't think you can say the same for the term bigot or the more loaded term racist.
Why ever not?
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Old 06.08.2018, 15:40
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I think many EFers would also wear the term "Leftist" as a badge of honor. I don't think you can say the same for the term bigot or the more loaded term racist.
I suspect most of the people accused of being "leftist" on here, whatever it really means, probably don't care as it is a daft label which I am sure they don't believe applies to them. I am sure many of the bigots on here feel the same way, so what's the issue? Do bigots feel that being called a bigot is worse than being called a leftist? If so, why engage in bigotry and not leftism?
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Old 06.08.2018, 15:42
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I suggest you Google Voltaire...
What has overpriced beer in a Dada Bar got to do with this?
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Old 06.08.2018, 15:49
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I think many EFers would also wear the term "Leftist" as a badge of honor. I don't think you can say the same for the term bigot or the more loaded term racist.
Leftist is a generalisation that often does not apply, there are many shades of opinion that lazy people often concatenate und then use in a pejorative sense.

I have some liberal views but am not anti capitalist, for example.
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