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Old 07.08.2018, 17:34
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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No - I do not - unless those eggy Irishmen contributed more from their tax revenue than they cost from their egginess. My only potential problem would be where the stats didn't go far enough.
I think this is where we are always going to differ. Punishing the group for the sins of a few is best left in the realm of lazy primary school teachers in my book. It makes very little sense practically or economically compared to more exacting criteria.
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  #2842  
Old 07.08.2018, 17:42
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I think this is where we are always going to differ. Punishing the group for the sins of a few is best left in the realm of lazy primary school teachers in my book. It makes very little sense practically or economically compared to more exacting criteria.
Differing is fine - in my opinion a rational group will always accept only those who contribute on a net basis at least as much as they do. Where the statistics allow greater definition than nationality , religion , gender etc. then even better.

However you say that you would apply even more exacting criteria. What would they be and how would you implement ?
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  #2843  
Old 07.08.2018, 17:49
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Differing is fine - in my opinion a rational group will always accept only those who contribute on a net basis at least as much as they do. Where the statistics allow greater definition than nationality , religion , gender etc. then even better.

However you say that you would apply even more exacting criteria. What would they be and how would you implement ?
If we discount refugees / asylum seekers, as I believe that we are morally (and probably legally, due to international agreements) obligated to allow them entry and safety then I think the criteria are relatively simple.

You can discriminate on things like ablility (utility to the country - level of education for example or how badly the country needs the person - nurses, doctors, etc). You can also discriminate against people with a criminal record (set a sensible threashold - motoring offences, fine, fraud or assault+ not fine).

You can't (and shouldn't morally or practically/economically speaking) discriminate on things like race/religion/nationality. Do you want to ban an Iranian rocket scientist or an Afghan Neurosurgeon? Almost certainly not.
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  #2844  
Old 07.08.2018, 17:57
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Can you provide any evidence for that ? Genuinely interested.
Quite frankly I doubt you really are. But just in case start with this and check the chart on UK's foreign prison population in relation to their share of the population.


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Again I'm not familiar with this "phenemenon" but keen to see evidence.
Oh my, that's just too bad. You should have paid attentiont when the stuff got posted.

The info is still avaliable, feel free to search the relevant threads. Those on the MEI and the Durchsetzungsinitiative come to mind.
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If anything I had expected the Irish to be over-represented due to the amount of anti-British sentiment many of them bear as well as the large number of ethnically Irish travellers who have been extremely difficult to manage in both countries.
I really doubt the Swiss in the UK generally have an historical axe to grind with the British. Yet they're over-represented in the prisons just like everybody else.

Last edited by Urs Max; 07.08.2018 at 18:08.
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  #2845  
Old 07.08.2018, 18:06
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

Hope he doesn’t apologise.

Boris Johnson told to apologise for burka jibe
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  #2846  
Old 07.08.2018, 18:14
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Quite frankly I doubt you really are. But just in case start with this and check the chart on UK's foreign prison population in relation to their share of the population.


That's an interesting chart but is not what you state above i.e. "chart on UK's foreign prison population in relation to their share of the population."

It shows the proportion of foreigners in prison in each country relative to the proportion of foreigners in that country itself. If anything it suggests that the best policy adopted to immigration is that of Japan - at least from the perspective of the penal system.

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Oh my, that's just too bad. You should have paid attentiont when the stuff got posted.

The info is still avaliable, feel free to search the relevant threads. Those on the MEI and the Durchsetzungsinitiative come to mind.

I really doubt the Swiss in the UK generally have an historical axe to grind with the British. Yet they're over-represented in the prisons just like everybody else.
No they are not - as per above. Please pay closer attention to the data.
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  #2847  
Old 07.08.2018, 18:22
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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If we discount refugees / asylum seekers, as I believe that we are morally (and probably legally, due to international agreements) obligated to allow them entry and safety then I think the criteria are relatively simple.
How do you distinguish between economic refugees or benefit tourists and genuine refugees in an economically effective way ? Also Japan for example is extremely rigorous in its vetting of asylum seekers yet no country has yet to lay sanctions against them as a result.

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You can discriminate on things like ablility (utility to the country - level of education for example or how badly the country needs the person - nurses, doctors, etc). You can also discriminate against people with a criminal record (set a sensible threashold - motoring offences, fine, fraud or assault+ not fine).
Agree with you on all counts there - but again you need to define "utility" in a clear and objective way - which in itself is quite difficult unless you revert to "net economic contribution"
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You can't (and shouldn't morally or practically/economically speaking) discriminate on things like race/religion/nationality. Do you want to ban an Iranian rocket scientist or an Afghan Neurosurgeon? Almost certainly not.
I disagree with you on this - religion and nationality in particular have proven to be highly correlated to culture - which as Hughes and Sowell before him is tremendously correlated to economic outcome.
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  #2848  
Old 07.08.2018, 18:25
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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Yeah, cos petty cheap name calling is the new politics isn't it?

All about deflection and who can be the biggest man-child when you are utterly devoid of talent, knowledge and balls. FFS, they need to grow up.
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  #2849  
Old 07.08.2018, 18:29
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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How do you distinguish between economic refugees or benefit tourists and genuine refugees in an economically effective way ? Also Japan (for example is extremely rigorous in its vetting of asylum seekers yet no country has yet to lay sanctions against them as a result.
I think the guidelines on what constitutes a valid asylum claim are pretty well entrenched in most western countries. The UN definition is set out here:
https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/po...s_about_asylum

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Agree with you on all counts there - but again you need to define "utility" in a clear and objective way - which in itself is quite difficult unless you revert to "net economic contribution".
More difficult to define, it shouldn't only be based on salary of course - nurses may earn less than average but are essential. It is quite easy to define..."If you fall outside our sought after professions list, you need proof you can support yourself (+spouse and kids where applicable) - this amounts to xx,xxx per year plus xx,xxx for a spouse and xx,xxx per child. Failing this, you need to show you have a minimum of xxx,xxx of liquid assets."

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I disagree with you on this - religion and nationality in particular have proven to be highly correlated to culture - which as Hughes and Sowell before him is tremendously correlated to economic outcome.
The economic outcome is already known, they are highly trained professionals. I doubt you'd argue that race or religion is more highly correlated to outcome than the occupation (i.e. income & wealth) of the parents for when they have kids.
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  #2850  
Old 07.08.2018, 18:36
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

It would be so nice to drag this back to the original topic... Always being derailed by the same few, in particular the one who once posted on this very forum about their 'former' IRA sympathies -- until they grew up --.
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  #2851  
Old 07.08.2018, 18:37
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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I think the guidelines on what constitutes a valid asylum claim are pretty well entrenched in most western countries. The UN definition is set out here:
https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/po...s_about_asylum
That is not the question asked - try again (please).

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More difficult to define, it shouldn't only be based on salary of course - nurses may earn less than average but are essential. It is quite easy to define..."If you fall outside our sought after professions list, you need proof you can support yourself (+spouse and kids where applicable) - this amounts to xx,xxx per year plus xx,xxx for a spouse and xx,xxx per child. Failing this, you need to show you have a minimum of xxx,xxx of liquid assets."
I think this is pretty good.

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The economic outcome is already known, they are highly trained professionals. I doubt you'd argue that race or religion is more highly correlated to outcome than the occupation (i.e. income & wealth) of the parents for when they have kids.
With your first statement I would say it is not certain and therefore not known e.g. do they speak the language ? Are they Salafists ?

To your second statement I would tend to agree but have no problem with using additional attributes to inform the decision.
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  #2852  
Old 07.08.2018, 18:48
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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That is not the question asked - try again (please).
With the greatest respect, I believe it is the answer the the question you asked...

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How do you distinguish between economic refugees or benefit tourists and genuine refugees in an economically effective way?.
As mentioned above, in the link I sent, is the definition of a valid claim for asylum. This establishes the process by which asylum seekers are accepted as genuine refugees.

My suggestion regarding who can move to the country outside of asylum seekers, which you agreed with largely, eliminates benefits tourism. I think the term "economic refugee" isn't really a good one, it doesn't make sense. Refugee implies a threat to self, it has no economic component. Economic migrant is perhaps more apposite. They would only be admitted if they met my criteria from the previous post.
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  #2853  
Old 07.08.2018, 18:51
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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It would be so nice to drag this back to the original topic... Always being derailed by the same few, in particular the one who once posted on this very forum about their 'former' IRA sympathies -- until they grew up --.
We are discussing reasonable criteria for immigration - including for Muslims. How is that a derailment ?

Thanks a lot for the personal attack - I especially like the way you put the word "former" in inverted commas - as if the many posts condemning that organisation and those who support it were not evidence of my genuine loathing for them.

Those who wish to check the post to which Joe refers can find it here.

Finally I could ask if you have any intention of growing up.
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  #2854  
Old 07.08.2018, 18:59
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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With the greatest respect, I believe it is the answer the the question you asked...



As mentioned above, in the link I sent, is the definition of a valid claim for asylum. This establishes the process by which asylum seekers are accepted as genuine refugees.
Firstly thank u for being respectful.

"How do you distinguish between economic refugees or benefit tourists and genuine refugees in an economically effective way? was the bit I was hoping you would establish.
To my mind to do that you have to be strict enough to deter any non-genuine applicants - e.g. anyone who has destroyed identification documents.

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My suggestion regarding who can move to the country outside of asylum seekers, which you agreed with largely, eliminates benefits tourism. I think the term "economic refugee" isn't really a good one, it doesn't make sense. Refugee implies a threat to self, it has no economic component. Economic migrant is perhaps more apposite. They would only be admitted if they met my criteria from the previous post.
I do not know if it eliminates benefit tourism - it would - if properly enforced establish "fitness to work".
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Old 07.08.2018, 18:59
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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We are discussing reasonable criteria for immigration - including for Muslims. How is that a derailment ?

Thanks a lot for the personal attack - I especially like the way you put the word "former" in inverted commas - as if the many posts condemning that organisation and those who support it were not evidence of my genuine loathing for them.

Those who wish to check the post to which Joe refers can find it here.

Finally I could ask if you have any intention of growing up.

My point is that I have a Scottish mate who is a massive Rangers fan and will blame anything and everything on 'Fenian Bastards'. He's still a mate but I heartily detest his view regarding this. What is the difference between him and you?
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  #2856  
Old 07.08.2018, 19:05
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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My point is that I have a Scottish mate who is a massive Rangers fan and will blame anything and everything on 'Fenian Bastards'. He's still a mate but I heartily detest his view regarding this. What is the difference between him and you?
1. I don't like football
2. We are not mates (yet)
3. I don't blame "anything and everything on" any one section of society - not even Sinn Fein (although they are ku.n.ts) - for example the weather - oh ok mostly I blame the Chinese and the Yanks for that
4. Thanks for the distraction - I took it as banter and didn't take offence
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Old 07.08.2018, 19:14
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

The thing is he hates all catholics for no reason as far as I can see, that they support Celtic. Known him for over 30 yeras always the same. He's been living in Thailand for years surrounded by Muslims. Buddhists and what not... Still hates catholics. Irrational, nicest bloke you coud ever meet unless... Now back to the topic.
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Old 07.08.2018, 19:42
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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That's an interesting chart but is not what you state above i.e. "chart on UK's foreign prison population in relation to their share of the population."

It shows the proportion of foreigners in prison in each country relative to the proportion of foreigners in that country itself. If anything it suggests that the best policy adopted to immigration is that of Japan - at least from the perspective of the penal system.
Correct, I misphrased.The chart confirms the statement you you replied to above, i.e. that the situation is the same everywhere: Foreigners are overrepresented in prisons.

So you agree on the fact. It's another one you should expect to not get additional evidence for. Regardless of the extent to which you keep being obtuse and obnoxious.
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  #2859  
Old 07.08.2018, 21:29
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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The point is that statistics cannot harm anyone - they are not racist or xenophobic - and should not be seen as such. That was the point of including white immigrants as well as less white ones - so (in this case the UK) the receiving country could make objective decisions about who if anyone they should let immigrate - and similarly for Muslim as well as non-Muslims - that is the topic of this thread y'kno.
True, statistics cannot harm anyone but if they are incorrectly used or misunderstood then then they can cause harm.
To quote again;
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“Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.”
― Aaron Levenstein
It is not enough to simply quote the headline numbers; to quote statistics properly you need to dig into them, understand the definitions used, how the numbers are calculated and what is meant.
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Old 07.08.2018, 22:25
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Re: All about Muslims (in the wake of terrorist attacks in Europe)

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And you have - repeatedly - but all of those insults were personal attacks - regardless as to whether or not you believe the veracity of those claims. Either personal attacks are or are not against the forum rules.



Thomas Sowell and governmental authorities are biased? Ok then.
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The crime rate among resident foreigners ("immigrant criminality") is significantly higher (by a factor 3.7 counting convictions under criminal law in 2003).[13] In 1997, there were for the first time more foreigners than Swiss among the convicts under criminal law (out of a fraction of 20.6% of the total population at the time). In 1999, the Federal Department of Justice and Police ordered a study regarding delinquency and nationality (Arbeitsgruppe "Ausländerkriminalität"), which in its final report (2001) found that a conviction rate under criminal law about 12 times higher among asylum seekers (4%), while the conviction rate among other resident foreigners was about twice as high (0.6%) compared to Swiss citizens (0.3%).[14]
Completely wrong on all counts

It seems that truth is racist on here.
Fine example here of not understanding the statistics you quote
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there were for the first time more foreigners than Swiss among the convicts under criminal law (out of a fraction of 20.6% of the total population at the time)
You do not mention that half of these foreigners in prison were here illegally without permits so were not part of the 20.6% legally here of the total population that you are trying to compare these numbers with.

There is also the fact that 40% of prisoners who are in Swiss prisons are awaiting trial so have not been found guilty of anything.
Source

Now your comparison looks completely different, oder?
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